Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

tick said:
Because you are scared to go down rock it, and you don’t want to keep climbing over to Mathis.
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A few trail signs go a LONG WAY to helping. Perhaps make "unwritten rules" written? At the top of Cholla a simple sign "Uphill traffic only. Downhill traffic please use Wood Canyon Trail - 50 yards to the east just outside of park fence."

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Though I hate to think that somewhere there is another biking forum where people are bitching - "hey did you hear they are thinking about making Cholla up-hill traffic only? ZOMG idiots! It's my favorite downhill in the park!!" :)
 
BonsaiNut said:
A few trail signs go a LONG WAY to helping. Perhaps make "unwritten rules" written? At the top of Cholla a simple sign "Uphill traffic only. Downhill traffic please use Wood Canyon Trail - 50 yards to the east just outside of park fence."

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Though I hate to think that somewhere there is another biking forum where people are bitching - "hey did you hear they are thinking about making Cholla up-hill traffic only? ZOMG idiots! It's my favorite downhill in the park!!" :)
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There have actually been thoughts (and plans drawn AFAIK) of re-routing Cholla. To me, it's a classic climb, a manageable or fun descent, and a scenic trail for hikers and runners; and I like its current alignment. I think one problem is that there aren't any options at that end of the park (other than the unaesthetic backyard dirt road), and most users end up on it. And also it wasn't being taken care of for awhile and got wide. Not that that's a bad thing because we need room for all park users to co-exist peacefully, especially at peak hours. A re-route would most likely require closure of corresponding sections of existing trail, if not the whole thing. Want that? If not, I'd say get prepared to help the park maintain this and other trails so they're as enjoyable as possible to the majority of users.
 
I rode Aliso this morning. The rangers were out in force. There were two rangers on Wood Canyon and an OC Sheriff sitting in his vehicle at the bottom of Cholla. The first Ranger was right where 5 Oaks meets Wood Canyon and the second one was where the closed part of Coyote Run connects back to Wood Canyon I believe. Not sure if they were looking for poachers or E-bikes, but I was surprised to see them there. Specially the Sheriff. They all just said good morning when we rode past. This was right at 7 am, so they were out early. I’ve been riding Aliso for over 20 years and have maybe seen one Ranger on the trail the entire time.

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pperrelle said:
I rode Aliso this morning. The rangers were out in force. There were two rangers on Wood Canyon and an OC Sheriff sitting in his vehicle at the bottom of Cholla. The first Ranger was right where 5 Oaks meets Wood Canyon and the second one was where the closed part of Coyote Run connects back to Wood Canyon I believe. Not sure if they were looking for poachers or E-bikes, but I was surprised to see them there. Specially the Sheriff. They all just said good morning when we rode past. This was right at 7 am, so they were out early. I’ve been riding Aliso for over 20 years and have maybe seen one Ranger on the trail the entire time.

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I saw both rangers this morning too. The one was hanging around near the bottom of the illegal trail just north of 5 oaks when I passed. Just then i heard a couple of riders who were pedaling along behind me on the fire road stop and discuss said illegal trail, and another in the vicinity, loudly in apparently full earshot of the ranger. ...SIIIIIGHHHH...
 
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Obsidian said:
This thread was too long for me to actually read through, but I blame eBikes.
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Most of the blame is at the feet of riders riding and building illegal trails (and lately posting about them on social media) on either kind of bike. Of which there is a kinda long history of in the area, and ebikes are a relative newcomer; but I’m sure they added fuel to the fire.
 
sir crashalot said:
The one was hanging around near the bottom of the illegal trail just north of 5 oaks when I passed.
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You mean this one? In this age of Google Maps, there isn't an illegal trail in the OC that can't be spotted from the luxury of your desktop. People think they are being clever, but the rangers are very aware of every one.

They need to do what the Marines in Camp Pendleton did - show up in force and seize a few dozen bikes while fining the owners. Amazing how that nips the behavior in the bud!

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I love it when I see the Sheriff out at Cherry Canyon. 99.9999% of the dog walkers take their dogs off the leash the moment they touch dirt. I cannot tell you how many times I have been spooked by free roaming dogs while rolling through there. I hope they all get cited.

Same for the offenders in da OC.
 
And I too was out at Aliso today. Saw the Ranger at the bottom of said illegal trail waiting. Later in the day saw the Ranger again at the same spot along with the Sheriff. This time they had two MTBer's getting a ticket. They didn't look too happy. But they weren't the only one's. It appeared some hikers were also getting ticketed.
 
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Let's assume for the sake of argument, that it's possible that many if not most of the "new generation" of hard core riders in Aliso don't really know that there are authorized and unauthorized trails. How would they know? The trails are 15 ft. wide with thousands of tracks. Their friends ride the trails all the time. The internet and social media is full of videos of these trails by name. You will see these trails in print and online industry ads. There are no signs that mention "legal" and "illegal" trails. One has to know that a trail that is not named on the official park map should not be ridden.

The more militant among you - a disturbing trend I might add - will say "they know." "They all know. I heard them say it." Burn 'em! Bring in the military and take their bikes! I would prefer to educate and warn first, then enforce with increasing veracity.

In my work, I never enforce a policy that is unclear to my "clients" until the policy has been communicated a hundred ways to Sunday. Then enforcement can become more severe.
 
herzalot said:
Let's assume for the sake of argument, that it's possible that many if not most of the "new generation" of hard core riders in Aliso don't really know that there are authorized and unauthorized trails. How would they know? The trails are 15 ft. wide with thousands of tracks. Their friends ride the trails all the time. The internet and social media is full of videos of these trails by name. You will see these trails in print and online industry ads. There are no signs that mention "legal" and "illegal" trails. One has to know that a trail that is not named on the official park map should not be ridden.

The more militant among you - a disturbing trend I might add - will say "they know." "They all know. I heard them say it." Burn 'em! Bring in the military and take their bikes! I would prefer to educate and warn first, then enforce with increasing veracity.

In my work, I never enforce a policy that is unclear to my "clients" until the policy has been communicated a hundred ways to Sunday. Then enforcement can become more severe.
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The type of signs at the bottom of Bommer Canyon that the IRC put down are relatively clear. Handing out some flyers on Sat morning (dont toss them) can help too. Word of mouth as well.
 
herzalot said:
Let's assume for the sake of argument, that it's possible that many if not most of the "new generation" of hard core riders in Aliso don't really know that there are authorized and unauthorized trails. How would they know? The trails are 15 ft. wide with thousands of tracks. Their friends ride the trails all the time. The internet and social media is full of videos of these trails by name. You will see these trails in print and online industry ads. There are no signs that mention "legal" and "illegal" trails. One has to know that a trail that is not named on the official park map should not be ridden.

The more militant among you - a disturbing trend I might add - will say "they know." "They all know. I heard them say it." Burn 'em! Bring in the military and take their bikes! I would prefer to educate and warn first, then enforce with increasing veracity.

In my work, I never enforce a policy that is unclear to my "clients" until the policy has been communicated a hundred ways to Sunday. Then enforcement can become more severe.
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The majority of those riders know that they were rolling in the wrong, riding unsafely, and/or exceeding the speed limit when they are doing it. People aren't that stupid.

I think you should take part in the patrolling part of this issue to get the word out. Community service is highly commendable.

If I read correctly, this is not something new. The powers that be have been pissed off for sometime and I'm sure that the word got out then, so they knew. Oh, yes, they knew this was coming.
 
I do not think OC Parks is trying very hard. I saw three eBikes and two off leash dogs in an hour and a half ride this morning at Oaks. Zero rangers.

Aliso & Laguna is more difficult, but it would be so easy to enforce Oaks since almost everyone ends up on Barham or the fire road with the three B's. Just randomly stick a ranger on one or the other and the word would spread fast within the eBike community. Weir would be even easier to enforce. They could solve the eBike problem at Oaks/Weir in a month if they tried.
 
Having law enforcement posted at any given riding destination is no different than driving through a CHP speed trap. If you are doing wrong when they see you, you deserve to get penalized.

If you give a warning in today's world with it's "leave me alone" attitude, the offenders will just go somewhere else and offend there. But if citations are issued, that hurts. It makes the offender think twice about doing it again. Sometimes you gotta get burned by the flame before you believe that the fire is hot. Humanity needs a "correction" periodically.

I have a feeling that after enough violators are cited, things will simmer down, and then the powers that be will not feel so compelled to take extreme action. To me, this is good news. The powers that be could simply have shut it all down completely, and that would have been a shame.
 
SnakeCharmer said:
The powers that be could simply have shut it all down completely, and that would have been a shame.
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I think it's easy for us to generalize or oversimplify, especially concerning areas we're unfamiliar with. It's complicated here. Those of us who ride these parks already do very well interacting with each other, regardless of user group. We hope to make things even better.

Because of that, we've already started working with the rangers to find the best solutions on some of these issues. One of our first goals is to improve communication between park staff and the local mountain bike community.

Thanks for all the good ideas; we'll make sure to include those in our discussion. And if you're riding here and see a ranger, or even a sheriff(!).. please stop and tell them how much you love the parks, and thank them for doing a great job. I think they'd enjoy hearing from you.
 
herzalot said:
Let's assume for the sake of argument, that it's possible that many if not most of the "new generation" of hard core riders in Aliso don't really know that there are authorized and unauthorized trails. How would they know? The trails are 15 ft. wide with thousands of tracks. Their friends ride the trails all the time. The internet and social media is full of videos of these trails by name. You will see these trails in print and online industry ads. There are no signs that mention "legal" and "illegal" trails. One has to know that a trail that is not named on the official park map should not be ridden.

The more militant among you - a disturbing trend I might add - will say "they know." "They all know. I heard them say it." Burn 'em! Bring in the military and take their bikes! I would prefer to educate and warn first, then enforce with increasing veracity.

In my work, I never enforce a policy that is unclear to my "clients" until the policy has been communicated a hundred ways to Sunday. Then enforcement can become more severe.
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I am totally fine with forbearance until the park updates it’s signage, and there needs to be an education campaign. But I’m not expecting much from the bureaucrats. I’m expecting more of the same Dilbert-worthy nonsense: a blind eye followed by the Punishing of the Innocent.

The bike shops that have shamelessly pushed people into bikes they knew weren’t legally rideable should be held to account, more so than some miseducated riders. Support your non-local internet shop.
 
I would guess that most eBike riders in OC Parks are unaware they are illegal, despite the signage. Two of the three I encountered this morning posted their Strava publicly as an eBike ride (and props to both for marking them as eBike rides).

I left them both a reasonably nice (for me) message on their rides ... "FYI, eBikes are prohibited in all OC Parks, including Santiago Oaks. Rangers are currently ticketing eBikes in the parks. I assume you were not aware as you are posting publicly."

I am curious to see their response.

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kioti said:
I think it's easy for us to generalize or oversimplify, especially concerning areas we're unfamiliar with. It's complicated here. Those of us who ride these parks already do very well interacting with each other, regardless of user group. We hope to make things even better.

Because of that, we've already started working with the rangers to find the best solutions on some of these issues. One of our first goals is to improve communication between park staff and the local mountain bike community.

Thanks for all the good ideas; we'll make sure to include those in our discussion. And if you're riding here and see a ranger, or even a sheriff(!).. please stop and tell them how much you love the parks, and thank them for doing a great job. I think they'd enjoy hearing from you.
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Most excellent to hear that something is in the works! :thumbsup:
 
herzalot said:
Let's assume for the sake of argument, that it's possible that many if not most of the "new generation" of hard core riders in Aliso don't really know that there are authorized and unauthorized trails. How would they know? The trails are 15 ft. wide with thousands of tracks. Their friends ride the trails all the time. The internet and social media is full of videos of these trails by name. You will see these trails in print and online industry ads. There are no signs that mention "legal" and "illegal" trails. One has to know that a trail that is not named on the official park map should not be ridden.
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I get your overall point, but I disagree with the "How would they know?" portion. I do not ride Aliso & Laguna much, overall, but I could literally only lead someone to four illegal trails in both parks, or maybe five if I included the bottom of one trail that I have no idea where it begins. BTW, three of those trails I only know about from Tommy's videos that were posted in this forum (never would have seen them on YouTube otherwise), and one from searching a Strava flyby after I saw two guys disappearing off a fire road where I did not even know a trail existed.

I do not really seek them out, and the only one I have actually ridden is MC. Point is, I think most of the illegal trails in both parks are reasonably well hidden if one is not specifically looking for illegal trails to ride. If someone is looking for them, then yes, it is not too hard to find them.
 
mtnbikej said:
Actually.....the Ebikes are going out here because.....
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I honestly think that some ebikers are not aware that they aren't allowed on dirt.

The ebike companies are in it for the $$$ - and I have yet to see a single one that says "be a responsible e-biker - stay on roads or approved paved trails ONLY." They all seem to be marketing 'mountain' e-bikes and 'get out in the wilds' advantages. They don't care if some rider gets a ticket - as long as they have already gotten their money.

I haven't seen very many "NO E-BIKES" signs anywhere.
 
BonsaiNut said:
I honestly think that some ebikers are not aware that they aren't allowed on dirt.

The ebike companies are in it for the $$$ - and I have yet to see a single one that says "be a responsible e-biker - stay on roads or approved paved trails ONLY." They all seem to be marketing 'mountain' e-bikes and 'get out in the wilds' advantages. They don't care if some rider gets a ticket - as long as they have already gotten their money.

I haven't seen very many "NO E-BIKES" signs anywhere.
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I will agree that some don’t know.....but just about everyone I have talked to have acknowledged knowing they weren’t allowed.
 
SnakeCharmer said:
The majority of those riders know that they were rolling in the wrong, riding unsafely, and/or exceeding the speed limit when they are doing it. People aren't that stupid.

I think you should take part in the patrolling part of this issue to get the word out. Community service is highly commendable.

If I read correctly, this is not something new. The powers that be have been pissed off for sometime and I'm sure that the word got out then, so they knew. Oh, yes, they knew this was coming.
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@herzalot has a very positive view of his fellow man- something I admire in him. He is also more in tune with the unique nature of the Laguna community than are we.
 
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