Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

sir crashalot said:
D. (my wife came up with this one). Seriously F up the trail beds on illegal trails-dig giant holes, pile big rocks, string barb wire through, etc. Obviously piles of brush at the entrances arent enough of a deterrent.
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Total destruction along with monitoring/enforcement are the only things that will keep people off trails. The land manager can put up signs all they want and pile obstructions on trails or deconstruct them, but they always walk away like the problem is solved. In SD the rangers piled stuff up on trails in Deer Canyon. Lots of stuff. Slowly a few persistent individuals have uncovered those trails and now they are like open freeways again. On an adjacent parcel owned by CA Fish & Wildlife there were active ranger patrols and ticketing for awhile which kept people away as intended and for the most part people have stayed away even after patrols eased off. Around Miramar, military police issuing tickets wasn't enough to keep people away. As soon as there was a reprieve in patrols riders were right back out there. It wasn't until bikes started getting confiscated that people really started staying away. The base CO was a mountain biker and recognized that would be the only way to really get people's attention. It worked, but he almost lost his career due to the controversy.

Riders are so used to poaching trails that they think nothing of riding them. Hard to blame someone when there is a fun trail with lots of recent tire tracks, and no ranger in sight. It may well take something drastic to really get people's attention and follow the rules. It would be unfortunate if all the trails were closed to bikes. Would that even work? Without enforcement/monitoring and closure of trails, it wouldn't. It might keep some or a at most the majority of casual riders away but if the trails continue to exist, people will still poach them. Some will just be more discrete than others. With so many access points it would be impossible to keep people out.

SnakeCharmer said:
This is the time for the OC bike clubs/organizations to approach the rangers in an effort to take part in ending the actions of the offenders..
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It could take a lot of advocacy work over many years to maintain access to the parks or restore it if lost.

As much as people want to say more trails is the answer, that may not happen and not just because of lack of land. Down here CA Fish & Wildlife has been paying a lot of attention to proliferation of unauthorized trails. Because of the Multiple Species Conservation Plan in effect down here F&W effectively has a veto over new trails on non-federal land and they have used examples such as Deer Canyon, Miramar and others as reason to reject trail networks that have full support of the City, County and other agencies. It is going to be an uphill battle.
 
@herzalot you're pretty in tune down there, so I am assuming this came from a reliable source?

Do rangers actually have discretion to close the parks to mountain bikes? Or would that take action by the County?

SHARE's next board meeting is Monday, September 10, is this issue at a level where this should be brought up at something like the board meeting (note: I'm not a member, not sure if you have to be a member to attend)?
 
mtnbikej said:
OC Parks will tell you, if there is not an Official Parks Trail Sign at the top/bottom of a trail....it is not a sanctioned trail.
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As somebody who spent a few years writing citations for minor violations like this at the beach, I can attest that that's not good enough in court. If there isn't legal signage, enforcement is a waste of time as the citation will/should be dismissed in court. I've had 100 people try and fight citations based on lack of signage. Luckily for me, the City of SD goes completely overboard with their signage and we obviously bring photos of said signage with us to court to show the judge.
 
mtbMike said:
As somebody who spent a few years writing citations for minor violations like this at the beach, I can attest that that's not good enough in court. If there isn't legal signage, enforcement is a waste of time as the citation will/should be dismissed in court. I've had 100 people try and fight citations based on lack of signage. Luckily for me, the City of SD goes completely overboard with their signage and we obviously bring photos of said signage with us to court to show the judge.
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That’s what I’m saying.....legal trails have Trail Markers/Signs installed by OC Parks.

No sign.....illegal trail.

All the legal trails at Oaks have signs.
 
mtnbikej said:
That’s what I’m saying.....legal trails have Trail Markers/Signs installed by OC Parks.

No sign.....illegal trail.

All the legal trails at Oaks have signs.
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It doesn't work that way. The illegal trails are the ones that need to be signed if you want to write somebody citations for riding on them. As mentioned earlier by somebody else, if a trail isn't posted as closed, it can't be presumed that the average visitor would have any idea that the trail is closed and/or illegal to ride. I guarantee you the County/City/State know all the rules and what's required of them, they just don't want to spend the money to erect proper signage.
 
Seems to me that closing the parks to bikes will only keep the honest riders that ride legal trails out. Poachers will still ride illegal trails with park closed or not. If they have the enforcement dollars to keep the park closed to all bikes, then they have the enforcement to police illegal trails. And a $50 ticket is a joke...won't do anything to deter illegal trail use.
 
littlewave said:
Or the reason @herzalot is hearing rumblings about closure to mountain bikes...
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Just so you know......

b_1_q_0_p_0.jpg



Mo ain't saving anyone, except the animals he won't eat.
 
herzalot said:
Well, it's happening. Inside sources reveal that rangers are considering closing Aliso and LCWP to mt. bikes if they can't find a way to curb the use of off-menu trails and "dangerous" riding.

If this progresses into action, we may need organized, collective action. And/or I may need to move.

Thank you STRAVA, YouTube, E-bikes and careless, clueless, ego-driven riders! :bang:
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I don't live down there and have no idea of all the minutia involved.
I guess my first question is what inside sources?
Who are they?
How reliable and how powerful are they?
Two pages of a stirred up hornets nest.

I guess I would just like to see some facts to all of this. I'm not questioning anyone's credibility, but would like some data from someone who can produce real data.
I am getting some upset PM's wanting to know if this is true or hyperbole.
I'm not questioning you Herzy but who is giving you this info and what is their plan of action, really.
 
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TwoWheel Eric said:
Seems to me that closing the parks to bikes will only keep the honest riders that ride legal trails out. Poachers will still ride illegal trails with park closed or not. If they have the enforcement dollars to keep the park closed to all bikes, then they have the enforcement to police illegal trails. And a $50 ticket is a joke...won't do anything to deter illegal trail use.
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Hmmn, I would think it would be easier to enforce if the entire area is closed to bikes. As it is now, a rider is only busted if seen specifically on an illegal trail, at the time. If the whole area is closed, jut being on a bike anywhere in the park, or simply entering with one, gets one busted. Like someone mentioned, IRC is closed completely and nobody poaches. I do think (hope) that theyll start with more severe fines and enforcement before the extreme measure of full closure. But youre right, poachers may still try, at least for a while, and honest riders got screwed. I dont ride illegal trails, and as bumemd as i would be if the parks close to bikes, i wouldnt try to ride there illegally. Guess id have to drive far to ride every time, Thats not good for the environment, either.
 
mtnbikej said:
That’s what I’m saying.....legal trails have Trail Markers/Signs installed by OC Parks.

No sign.....illegal trail.

All the legal trails at Oaks have signs.
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Except Old Emerald Falls, but that's because of jurisdictional infighting since the trail starts in the State Park and ends in LCWP.
Mikie said:
I don't live down there and have no idea of all the minutia involved.
I guess my first question is what inside sources?
Who are they?
How reliable and how powerful are they?
Two pages of a stirred up hornets nest.

I guess I would just like to see some facts to all of this. I'm not questioning anyone's credibility, but would like some data from someone who can produce real data.
I am getting some upset PM's wanting to know if this is true or hyperbole.
I'm not questioning you Herzy but who is giving you this info and what is their plan of action, really.
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Why would someone be PMing you for the truth of @herzalot claim?? That makes no sense. Herz probably isn't going to out his source at this point, and I doubt he would just spout a rumor if it wasn't coming from someone reliable, but yeah Herz how reliable is this source?
 
littlewave said:
Except Old Emerald Falls, but that's because of jurisdictional infighting since the trail starts in the State Park and ends in LCWP.

Why would someone be PMing you for the truth of @herzalot claim?? That makes no sense. Herz probably isn't going to out his source at this point, and I doubt he would just spout a rumor if it wasn't coming from someone reliable, but yeah Herz how reliable is this source?
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There is a pretty large number of people on the site that never post anything but watch everything we say and do. A post by a prominent imtbtrailer is making statements that they are considering closing parks they ride in and probably think I know something or wish to share their concerns offline. Because this subject is not a minor subject, has a huge impact on the lives of local mountain bikers looking to have a place to ride in that area. I trust @herzalot but I sure would like to see some evidence to fuel a solid debate, to develop a plan of action. I know this is a forum to talk stuff, but wouldn't it be great to have some data to put some minds either at ease or to be able to face a reality however that is defined?
just asking...:)
 
Mikie said:
There is a pretty large number of people on the site that never post anything but watch everything we say and do. A post by a prominent imtbtrailer is making statements that they are considering closing parks they ride in and probably think I know something or wish to share their concerns offline. Because this subject is not a minor subject, has a huge impact on the lives of local mountain bikers looking to have a place to ride in that area. I trust @herzalot but I sure would like to see some evidence to fuel a solid debate, to develop a plan of action. I know this is a forum to talk stuff, but wouldn't it be great to have some data to put some minds either at ease or to be able to face a reality however that is defined?
just asking...:)
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Totally get that. That's why I pm'ed @herzalot with some offline thoughts and concerns.
 
Mikie said:
There is a pretty large number of people on the site that never post anything but watch everything we say and do. A post by a prominent imtbtrailer is making statements that they are considering closing parks they ride in and probably think I know something or wish to share their concerns offline. Because this subject is not a minor subject, has a huge impact on the lives of local mountain bikers looking to have a place to ride in that area. I trust @herzalot but I sure would like to see some evidence to fuel a solid debate, to develop a plan of action. I know this is a forum to talk stuff, but wouldn't it be great to have some data to put some minds either at ease or to be able to face a reality however that is defined?
just asking...:)
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Those posters need to get climb out of the shadows and join the conversation. Perhaps some fresh points of view might be beneficial.
 
sir crashalot said:
Like someone mentioned, IRC is closed completely and nobody poaches.
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I have talked to a few of the rangers and rode with one of the Police guys patrolling on a MTB one day regarding the Irvine Open Space at Quail. You'd be surprised how many people poach those trails... Especially the ones where there isn't a gate (cattle crest, etc). The cop joked about how people will poach it with their OTH number plate on making it very easy to figure out who they are.
 
Good luck trying to close these parks to MTB's. I'll be the first to poach it when it's closed. At night. On an e-bike. While I'm drinking a beer. I'll bring lots of friends. I'll post videos. Then we'll get all the OC Parks Supervisors fired for not solving the issue of lack of diversity in trails and instead punishing the largest user group of the parks. If they want people to stay off closed trails, they need to enforce their rules. It's not the job of the cycling community, and to try and punish all cyclists isn't going to fly.
 
DBMX119 said:
I have talked to a few of the rangers and rode with one of the Police guys patrolling on a MTB one day regarding the Irvine Open Space at Quail. You'd be surprised how many people poach those trails... Especially the ones where there isn't a gate (cattle crest, etc). The cop joked about how people will poach it with their OTH number plate on making it very easy to figure out who they are.
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Oops, guess i was wrong about that.
 
If they close it only to mountain bikes, sue their pants off. It's a county park, for all the residents of the county (for starters), not just those with big whiny mouths or deep pockets or political connections. Either open it to everyone and enforce the trail closures against the hikers also - you know hikers and equestrians are not blameless halo-wearers - or close it to everyone for the benefit of the wilderness.
 
DBMX119 said:
I have talked to a few of the rangers and rode with one of the Police guys patrolling on a MTB one day regarding the Irvine Open Space at Quail. You'd be surprised how many people poach those trails... Especially the ones where there isn't a gate (cattle crest, etc). The cop joked about how people will poach it with their OTH number plate on making it very easy to figure out who they are.
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I am sure indeed there are poachers but judging by strava activity or rather the lack thereof, width of trails and again the lack thereof plus the absence of new off menu trails over there, it seems they do have a lot more success.
Just use the segment explorer on strava on a random day will show the difference.
But i hear your point.
 
Please re-read the initial post...

"...rangers are considering closing Aliso and LCWP to mt. bikes if they can't find a way to curb the use of off-menu trails..."

"considering" and "if" are important words in that sentence.

I am not asking nor suggesting that we take up pitchforks and torches. In fact, the wrong collective action could make matters worse. I am suggesting that we mt. bikers who ride these areas need to figure out a way to get our fellow riders to not shoot us all in the foot.

In Laguna, we have a councilwoman who wants all mt. bikers in Aliso and LCWP to register and wear numbers so they can be reported by anyone as "reckless." On the Ranger side of it, we have a group who are compelled to do something about the overuse of unauthorized trails - like, now.

Causing the problem, we have uneducated shredders who feel they have a right to do whatever they want without respect for the land, the land managers, the rangers, other trail users or their fellow mt. bikers. Moreover, they do so loudly, publicly and in large numbers. The rangers aren't the problem here, nor is the Councilwoman. It is us - or rather - the subset of us that I just described.
 
evdog said:
Total destruction along with monitoring/enforcement are the only things that will keep people off trails. The land manager can put up signs all they want and pile obstructions on trails or deconstruct them, but they always walk away like the problem is solved. In SD the rangers piled stuff up on trails in Deer Canyon. Lots of stuff. Slowly a few persistent individuals have uncovered those trails and now they are like open freeways again. On an adjacent parcel owned by CA Fish & Wildlife there were active ranger patrols and ticketing for awhile which kept people away as intended and for the most part people have stayed away even after patrols eased off. Around Miramar, military police issuing tickets wasn't enough to keep people away. As soon as there was a reprieve in patrols riders were right back out there. It wasn't until bikes started getting confiscated that people really started staying away. The base CO was a mountain biker and recognized that would be the only way to really get people's attention. It worked, but he almost lost his career due to the controversy.

Riders are so used to poaching trails that they think nothing of riding them. Hard to blame someone when there is a fun trail with lots of recent tire tracks, and no ranger in sight. It may well take something drastic to really get people's attention and follow the rules. It would be unfortunate if all the trails were closed to bikes. Would that even work? Without enforcement/monitoring and closure of trails, it wouldn't. It might keep some or a at most the majority of casual riders away but if the trails continue to exist, people will still poach them. Some will just be more discrete than others. With so many access points it would be impossible to keep people out.


It could take a lot of advocacy work over many years to maintain access to the parks or restore it if lost.

As much as people want to say more trails is the answer, that may not happen and not just because of lack of land. Down here CA Fish & Wildlife has been paying a lot of attention to proliferation of unauthorized trails. Because of the Multiple Species Conservation Plan in effect down here F&W effectively has a veto over new trails on non-federal land and they have used examples such as Deer Canyon, Miramar and others as reason to reject trail networks that have full support of the City, County and other agencies. It is going to be an uphill battle.
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I have heard about this down your way but is that the issue up in da OC at this point?
 
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