Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

HBkites said:
I wonder if he ever volunteered to do trail work, or he just likes to complain.....
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For what it's worth, I've done trail maintenance with him on some of the official maintenance efforts in Aliso, and from the conversations that day it sounded like it wasn't his first time. Not that that excuses the off menu trail promotion. Hopefully he has a change of heart on that front given what's at stake.
 
HBkites said:
I wonder if he ever volunteered to do trail work, or he just likes to complain.....
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MattB said:
For what it's worth, I've done trail maintenance with him on some of the official maintenance efforts in Aliso, and from the conversations that day it sounded like it wasn't his first time. Not that that excuses the off menu trail promotion. Hopefully he has a change of heart on that front given what's at stake.
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In all fairness I too have heard that he has spent quite of bit of time with @kioti doing trail work. Just passing this on to help round out the full picture! :thumbsup:
 
Ok so looking through this thread, the one thing I have searched for is any evidence of a Mountain bike organization advocacy group that represents primarily OC or these trails in specific. Did I miss this by any chance? If not, this is why this system is where it is at right now, at risk of losing access. There needs to be an organized group that can deal with the rangers and parks to come up with solutions. Right now it just seems like Laguna is a free for all in a place that is extremely popular with all sorts of users.

In the Gabes you have MWBA. In San Diego you have SDMBA. Up here in WA you have EMBA. I can tell you first hand that what they are doing up here in WA, they are doing it right. They work and build MTB specific trails. Every user has their own set of trails. Horses, Hikers, etc. All within the metro area of Seattle. The stoke is high and because of this, more and more trails are being built for bikes. It has not always been like this though, according to the old timers. It wasn't until EMBA started getting serious and showed consistent and responsible MTB use and trail building did they get the permits to build and maintain trails.

Bummed about the situation because I know many of you love this system and I hear the riding is incredible so I hope it all works out.
 
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Excerpt from todays Laguna Canyon Foundation email newsletter -

Laguna Canyon Foundation said:
Lizard Ambassadors
September Saturdays and Sundays
8:00am - 11:00am

We've had great feedback from the volunteers who have signed up for Lizard. In turn, they have reported great feedback from bikers and hikers. It's a fun time to chat with park visitors.

The rangers send their thanks, too. Our volunteers count the hikers and bikers on Lizard and let them know that the rangers are monitoring Lizard because of its popularity and recent uptick in user conflicts. They also remind everyone to be safe and kind. All this has been so very helpful.

If you're free this weekend, please sign up. To create interest and visibility, as well as, of course, to provide shade for volunteers, a pop-up has been secured at the top of Lizard. Once your shift is done, you'll email Paula with the number of hikers and the number of bikers you counted.
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SHARE is our local Orange County Chapter of IMBA. That's the only local mountain bike trail advocacy organization I'm aware of in OC. I've joined a few of their trail work days at Santiago Oaks, but I've never attended a meeting. If I remember right, they had a representative at the "summit" with LCF a year or so ago. I'm not sure how plugged in they are to all of this. I would think they should be one of the first groups that the rangers and OC Parks leaders would reach out to regarding mountain bike access. Maybe they are and we're just not hearing about it on this forum.

I've always had very positive interactions with them, and I know they have trail maintenance days at many parks in OC, and have (maybe had) a bike bell program.

Anyone else here have some insight on their involvement in these recent developments?

FYI, they have a board meeting coming up on 9/10 that is open to all and has a pre-meeting ride!
 
Cisco Roots said:
Ok so looking through this thread, the one thing I have searched for is any evidence of a Mountain bike organization advocacy group that represents primarily OC or these trails in specific. Did I miss this by any chance? If not, this is why this system is where it is at right now, at risk of losing access. There needs to be an organized group that can deal with the rangers and parks to come up with solutions. Right now it just seems like Laguna is a free for all in a place that is extremely popular with all sorts of users.

In the Gabes you have MWBA. In San Diego you have SDMBA. Up here in WA you have EMBA. I can tell you first hand that what they are doing up here in WA, they are doing it right. They work and build MTB specific trails. Every user has their own set of trails. Horses, Hikers, etc. All within the metro area of Seattle. The stoke is high and because of this, more and more trails are being built for bikes. It has not always been like this though, according to the old timers. It wasn't until EMBA started getting serious and showed consistent and responsible MTB use and trail building did they get the permits to build and maintain trails.

Bummed about the situation because I know many of you love this system and I hear the riding is incredible so I hope it all works out.
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Seems to me we need to start our own advocacy group. Who's in? Bueller?
 
Derkderkall said:
What about corba? Or are they ventura County based?
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CORBA is Steve Messer aka Kanga. He's highly involved in the trail efforts in LA County. They just recently re opened the portion of Gabrielino that was closed for almost a decade. The effort to get this trail going again was tremendous! There will never be a threat of taking away this trail from mountain bikers because mountain bikers lead the efforts to build the trail lol. Maybe someone should give him a ring and pick his ear on how to approach things. Steve is the absolute best advocate SoCal has and has the respect of the leadership of the Angeles National Forest.
 
So is this where we finally accept that Aliso & environs cannot possibly be "wilderness," as that is defined? I mean, it's surrounded by suburbia.

I hold no mystical reverence for wilderness when it's in an urban setting. It may very well be that at this juncture in our history we need to face up to the fact that this area under discussion is for recreation and not for "preservation," whatever that may mean.

Yes, I've read the agreements. No, I don't think they're worth the paper they wasted. Legalize the so-called illegal trails. Shut down the hiker nay-sayers. Let the equestrians know they are irrelevant here.

Let's face it; the way to change ridiculous and/or irrelevant law/regulation is by ignoring it. This is a time-honored American tradition, after all.
 
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Cisco Roots said:
Ok so looking through this thread, the one thing I have searched for is any evidence of a Mountain bike organization advocacy group that represents primarily OC or these trails in specific. Did I miss this by any chance? If not, this is why this system is where it is at right now, at risk of losing access. There needs to be an organized group that can deal with the rangers and parks to come up with solutions. Right now it just seems like Laguna is a free for all in a place that is extremely popular with all sorts of users.

In the Gabes you have MWBA. In San Diego you have SDMBA. Up here in WA you have EMBA. I can tell you first hand that what they are doing up here in WA, they are doing it right. They work and build MTB specific trails. Every user has their own set of trails. Horses, Hikers, etc. All within the metro area of Seattle. The stoke is high and because of this, more and more trails are being built for bikes. It has not always been like this though, according to the old timers. It wasn't until EMBA started getting serious and showed consistent and responsible MTB use and trail building did they get the permits to build and maintain trails.

Bummed about the situation because I know many of you love this system and I hear the riding is incredible so I hope it all works out.
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I hope everyone read this post as there is a lot of value in it. Why couldn't the OC Parks designate a percentage of the off menu trails as MTB specific. I bet that would go a long way. They could be adopted by a local MTB club.
 
mtnbikej said:
Seems as though OC Parks is going to war. It has been the wild wild west for about a decade. We are our own worst enemy. What we have proven is that we cannot govern ourselves.
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This is exactly why I take a hard stance on obeying trail rules. I don't ride illegal trails... ever. I'm not taking some judgemental high road - I am just trying to come down on the side of the rangers and the property managers - so that I can continue to ride these great parks.

Last time I was working trails with @kioti in Aliso Canyon, there were lines all over the hillside. We had to pick the "major trail" and work it - even though it was crossed in numerous locations by illegal lines.

I run every week on the Aliso Crest trail on the south side of the canyon (was there yesterday) - and you would be amazed if you saw all the illegal trails on the other north side of the canyon. It isn't a question of one or two - the entire hill is covered.

I haven't ridden the park in a year - because I consider it a mosh pit - a victim of its own success. If you can believe it, at one point I had a discussion with the developers of the Ranch at Laguna Beach - to turn the resort into an eco-friendly bike haven with direct access into the back of Aliso. I don't see that future today - because too many people do whatever the hell they feel like - with no respect for the park or other riders.

You reap what you sow.
 
Mikie said:
I hope everyone read this post as there is a lot of value in it. Why couldn't the OC Parks designate a percentage of the off menu trails as MTB specific. I bet that would go a long way. They could be adopted by a local MTB club.
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Warriors Society takes the CNF, but I am not aware of anyone embracing Aliso.

I have wondered how long the park can continue to suffer the environmental degradation caused by its popularity. Reminds me of the Devil's Slide (hiking) trail in Idyllwild, which ties up with the Pacific Crest Trail by Tahquitz Peak. Due to the popularity of the trail, the rangers eventually came up with a weekend permitting system where they will issue "X" permits per day on the weekend - and no more. You snooze, you lose. At the trailhead stands a friendly ranger who checks everyone for their permit... and if you ain't got one you ain't hiking (that trail).

Rangers are too busy to wet-nurse a bunch of mountain bikers who can't control their own behavior. They would much rather kick us all out of the parks if we can't behave ourselves.
 
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Mikie said:
I hope everyone read this post as there is a lot of value in it. Why couldn't the OC Parks designate a percentage of the off menu trails as MTB specific. I bet that would go a long way. They could be adopted by a local MTB club.
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We should show you around Aliso on a Saturday morning, and you’ll see what we’re up against. Between the Youtubers, ebikers and hiking hordes (walking 6 across is typical), it’s an uphill fight. SHARE does a pretty good job of representing MTB, though it does toe the IMBA line exactly on all issues (probably good for legal reasons but all IMBA approved trails tend to ride the same IMO).

The parks are being loved to death, and something will change. Unfortunately, unlike most trail systems in the country, we need Aliso more than Aliso needs us.
 
tick said:
We should show you around Aliso on a Saturday morning, and you’ll see what we’re up against.
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True insanity. I have only had two close calls involving a collision with another biker - and both occurred in Aliso on a weekend. There is so much that can be done in the parks to manage traffic and reign in bad behavior, but no one seems willing to do so.

I even mentioned (on this or another site that will go unmentioned) that perhaps they might want to turn Rock-It into a one-way downhill trail on weekends. Many people hated the idea. You want good times? Stand on Rock-It on Saturday at 10AM when a large group of riders approaches the rock garden from below - while 98% of the traffic is bombing from above. The only way to clear that patch safely is to carry speed... right into a group of riders scattered across the trail moving at walking pace.

Cholla should be one-way uphill for all bikes at all times. Not because of traffic, but because no one can ride that particular trail down without skidding half the way. The erosion on that trail - through solid rock - is appalling. No one cares - as long as they can skid down it on a Saturday and high-five their biking buddies at the bottom... as if they accomplished something extraordinary. The trail is too steep without enough switch-backs to control erosion if people skid down it. No one cares.
 
konakc said:
Thats an unwritten rule..chollo up hill only..
Why would u go down cholla?
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Don't ask me. I have never gone down Cholla or up Lynx, but I have been both directions on every other trail in the park. I enjoy climbing Rock-It, I just don't think it is safe to do so on weekends.

I think sometimes people ride the ridgeline down from Top of the World, and they get to the end of the park and see that gate, and they feel "forced" to descend Cholla. They don't know about the fire road descent 50 yards to the east. Or else they just don't care. Back when the Boy Scout shelter was still at the bottom, I would sit in the shade and chill for a bit, and on occasion people would come tumbling out of Cholla whooping and hollering. Usually I could hear their brakes squealing long before I saw them :(

The interesting thing about Aliso - if you don't ride it in a year you come back to it and it's like riding a completely new park. New lines everywhere, new bridges - or bridges gone, new sections of HAB, bushes that used to be in awkward places removed, sometimes new rail fences (Meadows) and then the next time the rail fences torn down (Meadows). The rate at which the park is constantly evolving is crazy - and many/most of the changes are not good.

Back in CNF I can ride some trails during the week, and I come back on Sunday morning and still see my fresh tracks from several days prior :) That's why I get nervous descending Joplin solo - I know there are sometimes several days - if not weeks - before the next rider. During the rains of 2010 I was up there 10 days after the last wave of rain... and I was the first rider down the trail!
 
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BonsaiNut said:
..Last time I was working trails with @kioti in Aliso Canyon, there were lines all over the hillside. We had to pick the "major trail" and work it - even though it was crossed in numerous locations by illegal lines.
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I'll chime in..:thumbsup:

@BonsaiNut, the line you're talking about is the fall line route on Meadows. I think there actually used to be a ranch road following that route. It's my understanding that SHARE and OC Parks worked together to put in the approved trail we worked on. Fences were installed to discourage park users from hiking and riding the fall line, but the fences get torn down and IMO became a man-made hazard. We removed them. Our goal has been to make Meadows sustainable and enjoyable enough that most users prefer it.
 
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konakc said:
Thats an unwritten rule..chollo up hill only..
Why would u go down cholla?
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Because you are scared to go down rock it, and you don’t want to keep climbing over to Mathis.

There should be be a “green run” somewhere, or else someone will go in to the bushes and build it themselves. At Oaks the uphill Chutes trail gets tons of DH traffic from noobs. It’s not just OK, it’s a good thing. The question is how to build the trail with that in mind.
 
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