Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

Kioti said:
"Well, we've got the right to be there. Or should I say privilege. It's in the original plan. Along with the option of adding trails, like has happened with Lizard, Mentally Sensitive and Car Wreck. Not saying we can't blow it.. but how 'bout we give peace a chance?"

And I'm saying don't acquiesce to the original "plan." There is no wilderness in Orange County any more. Let's face it, let's be clear about it, and let's not let that drive the discussion. So the only remaining point of contention is who gets to access the parks we all pay to have.

Boston Tea Party. Whiskey Rebellion. War of Northern Agression.

Admittedly some were more successful than others, but you get the drift.

Edit: I admit to missing this earlier - Privelege? I'm forced to contribute to the upkeep and it's a privilege to access it? I beg to differ.
 
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Runs with Scissors said:
Kioti said:
"Well, we've got the right to be there. Or should I say privilege. It's in the original plan. Along with the option of adding trails, like has happened with Lizard, Mentally Sensitive and Car Wreck. Not saying we can't blow it.. but how 'bout we give peace a chance?"

And I'm saying don't acquiesce to the original "plan." There is no wilderness in Orange County any more. Let's face it, let's be clear about it, and let's not let that drive the discussion. So the only remaining point of contention is who gets to access the parks we all pay to have.

Boston Tea Party. Whiskey Rebellion. War of Northern Agression.

Admittedly some were more successful than others, but you get the drift.

Edit: I admit to missing this earlier - Privelege? I'm forced to contribute to the upkeep and it's a privilege to access it? I beg to differ.
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Dude, the border is wide open for departure.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
I would explain why you will lose the battle and the war if you continue with an accommodating, apologetic, let's just get along stance, but none of you want to hear it. So I'll leave you with two words that most of you can follow through to the necessary conclusions and resultant actions: Rosa Parks.
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Dude. If I thought trail building on public property was a self-evident human right, I’d be right there with you. But nah.
 
I doubt that anyone is holding their breath to hear my thoughts on Mo’s vid.
Yet!
I’m going to...
For me I would struggle with any criticism, whether it’s perceptible myopia toward any user group, or reading a script. The fact that the kid was big enough.. for one, to listen and learn from a meeting with the OC Park Rangers, and had the cojones to share what I perceived as a well thought out narration on a tough subject, to take a stand, and draw a line in the sand for his own personal trail consumption in effort to set an example certainly receives my respect.

I would love it if the other kid would do the same. Has anybody reached out to him?

I would hate to see us spin circles on negotiation versus hostile take over. The stage is set to work with authorities, so the right thing to do is rally all and join a Trail Advocacy group we best feel will bring their organized best to the table and support them in making smart moves of negotiation.
 
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Just so those who are encouraging pitchforks and torches understand the diplomacy approach a wee bit more...

Civil disobedience is only effective and justified to stand up for fundamental human rights in the face of a great injustice. Mt. biking in a county park is not a civil right. As for the "I'm a taxpayer, thus I have a right to ___________ " that's a pretty low-grade argument for why a privilege is suddenly a right. As I alluded to, motorcyclists pay taxes, so do they too have a fundamental right to ride their chosen equipment on County trails?

By the same logic, we should be able to jump in a police cruiser and use it for our own transportation, since our taxes paid for it. I've had parents use the "I'm a taxpayer. I pay your salary" argument as a reason I should ignore consequences for egregious behavior.

Paying taxes doesn't entitle a person to do as he/she pleases with anything the taxes have helped to fund.
 
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herzalot said:
Just so those who are encouraging pitchforks and torches understand the diplomacy approach a wee bit more...

Civil disobedience is only effective and justified to stand against fundamental human rights in the face of a great injustice. Mt. biking in a county park is not a civil right. As for the "I'm a taxpayer, thus I have a right to ___________ " that's a pretty low-grade argument for why a privilege is suddenly a right. As I alluded to, motorcyclists pay taxes, so do they too have a fundamental right to ride their chosen equipment on County trails?

By the same logic, we should be able to jump in a police cruiser and use it for our own transportation, since our taxes paid for it. I've had parents use the "I'm a taxpayer. I pay your salary" argument as a reason I should ignore consequences for egregious behavior.

Paying taxes doesn't entitle a person to do as he/she pleases with anything the taxes have helped to fund.
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Well said.
 
Mikie said:
I doubt that anyone is holding their breath to hear my thoughts on Mo’s vid.
Yet!
I’m going to...
For me I would struggle with any criticism, whether it’s perceptible myopia toward any user group, or reading a script. The fact that the kid was big enough for one, to listen and learn from a meeting with the OC Park Rangers, and had the cojones to share what I perceived as a well thought out narration on a tough subject, to take a stand, and draw a line in the sand for his own personal trail consumption in effort to set an example certainly receives my respect.

I would love it if the other kid would do the same. Has anybody reached out to him?

I would hate to see us spin circles on negotiation versus hostile take over. The stage is set to work with authorities, so the right thing to do is rally all and join a Trail Advocacy group we best feel will bring their organized best to the table and support them in making smart moves of negotiation.
Click to expand...

yup
 
herzalot said:
Just so those who are encouraging pitchforks and torches understand the diplomacy approach a wee bit more...

Civil disobedience is only effective and justified to stand against fundamental human rights in the face of a great injustice. Mt. biking in a county park is not a civil right. As for the "I'm a taxpayer, thus I have a right to ___________ " that's a pretty low-grade argument for why a privilege is suddenly a right. As I alluded to, motorcyclists pay taxes, so do they too have a fundamental right to ride their chosen equipment on County trails?

By the same logic, we should be able to jump in a police cruiser and use it for our own transportation, since our taxes paid for it. I've had parents use the "I'm a taxpayer. I pay your salary" argument as a reason I should ignore consequences for egregious behavior.

Paying taxes doesn't entitle a person to do as he/she pleases with anything the taxes have helped to fund.
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People that use that argument have an inflated sense of entitlement.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Kioti said:
"Well, we've got the right to be there. Or should I say privilege. It's in the original plan. Along with the option of adding trails, like has happened with Lizard, Mentally Sensitive and Car Wreck. Not saying we can't blow it.. but how 'bout we give peace a chance?"

And I'm saying don't acquiesce to the original "plan." There is no wilderness in Orange County any more. Let's face it, let's be clear about it, and let's not let that drive the discussion. So the only remaining point of contention is who gets to access the parks we all pay to have.

Boston Tea Party. Whiskey Rebellion. War of Northern Agression.

Admittedly some were more successful than others, but you get the drift.

Edit: I admit to missing this earlier - Privelege? I'm forced to contribute to the upkeep and it's a privilege to access it? I beg to differ.
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You seem hung up on the word "wilderness" in the park name. Just because the area doesnt meet your stringent requirements to be considerd a true "wilderness" doesnt mean "well F*** it then, might as well give up and turn it into an amusement park or whatever." It simply means it's management focus is on habitat and natural resources conservation as best they can. I for one really like having the open space surrounding where I live still be at least quasi-wilderness, even if i cant ride my bike wherever i please in it. And i pay taxes too, and my wifes family directly did decades ago when laguna beach residents voted to increase their property taxes to pay for the laguna greenbelt (brownbelt?:))
Yes, privelege, Which I do believe we should fight for, but not in the way you describe, which would surely cause mtb'ers to lose access. Realistically, Its just not big enough of a social issue for there to be some kind of political revolution over it, lets save that for bigger issues. There are many things we pay taxes for and cant directly control with our personal whims, because otherwise everything would be utter mayhem. . Similarly, driving a car is a privilege, not a right, even though we pay taxes for roads. A privilege which most enjoy, but.. Cant obey the driving laws and rive responsibly, or drive where theres no road? license yanked.
It may be a basic human right to access the park, bringing a bicicyle might be the privilege.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
I would explain why you will lose the battle and the war if you continue with an accommodating, apologetic, let's just get along stance, but none of you want to hear it. So I'll leave you with two words that most of you can follow through to the necessary conclusions and resultant actions: Rosa Parks.
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You arent seriously equating the issue of mountain biking in county parks with institutionalized racism, are you?
 
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herzalot said:
By the same logic, we should be able to jump in a police cruiser and use it for our own transportation, since our taxes paid for it. I've had parents use the "I'm a taxpayer. I pay your salary" argument as a reason I should ignore consequences for egregious behavior.
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You can use the police as your personal Uber service, but they usually have a fixed destination in mind for you.
 
One of the first things the park should do is work on some kind of better legal access to the top of 5 oaks, which is probably one of the more popular challenging legal trails. HAB'ing up the trail itself which is the only legal access but awkward and kinda dangerous when its busy.
 
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sir crashalot said:
One of the first things the park should do is work on some kind of better legal access to the top of 5 oaks, which is probably the most popular legal trail. As far as I know, the path up the backside by the neighborhood is unsanctioned; as opposed to HAB'ing up the trail itself which is legal but a PITA and kinda dangerous when its busy. Anyone here know for sure the current status of that backside trail, is it even within the park boundary?
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5 Oaks is definitely not the most popular legal trail. I would bet that distinction lies with Rock-It, Cholla and the other trails that can be accessed from the main fire-road. However, for a trail with no legal access from the top, 5-O sure does see a lot of traffic (myself included - but I only hike up the trail to get there ;))!

The trail behind the houses is not authorized access - and it's falling off the hillside from all of the people not using it. The gated community is certainly not authorized access, and their super secret gate code and signage has been extremely effective :whistling:. The water district road is not authorized access - so yes, hiking the trail is the only legal access. I think it's best to remain quiet about access from the top, lest they decide to pull 5-O off the menu for that very reason.
 
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herzalot said:
5 Oaks is definitely not the most popular legal trail. I would bet that distinction lies with Rock-It, Cholla and the other trails that can be accessed from the main fire-road. However, for a trail with no legal access from the top, 5-O sure does see a lot of traffic (myself included - but I only hike up the trail to get there ;))!

The trail behind the houses is not authorized access - and it's falling off the hillside from all of the people not using it. The gated community is certainly not authorized access, and their super secret gate code and signage has been extremely effective :whistling:. The water district road is not authorized access - so yes, hiking the trail is the only legal access. I think it's best to remain quiet about access from the top, lest they decide to pull 5-O off the menu for that very reason.
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Yeah, you’re right that’s probably wise. I edited my post. I only hab up the trail itself, so was just looking for current info and makinga suggestion. Thanks!
 
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I lead the path shop ride through aliso saturday morning. It was a gorgeous morning to be out on the bike, lots of folks out there on bikes and lots of hikers. The buzz about the rangers started before we even left the car. That trend continued all morning as every time we stopped the discussion of illegal trails and the rangers actions were the topic of the day.

I was pretty impressed with the level of discussion and how civil it was. Just about every mountain bike group we encountered understood and agreed that this is not a surprise with how things were going in laguna. Everyone understood that while we don't agree with the outcome, the rangers don't really want to sit there writing tickets any more then we wanted to receive them.

Another interesting thing is that I ran into far more of the seasoned og laguna riders this last saturday then I usually see on weekends. Typically I see these guys on week days. Either way, it was interesting to talk to those guys and get their take on the current laguna issues.

Overall a good day. Many great interactions with hikers and other bikers and rangers alike.
 
herzalot said:
5 Oaks is definitely not the most popular legal trail. I would bet that distinction lies with Rock-It, Cholla and the other trails that can be accessed from the main fire-road. However, for a trail with no legal access from the top, 5-O sure does see a lot of traffic (myself included - but I only hike up the trail to get there ;))!

The trail behind the houses is not authorized access - and it's falling off the hillside from all of the people not using it. The gated community is certainly not authorized access, and their super secret gate code and signage has been extremely effective :whistling:. The water district road is not authorized access - so yes, hiking the trail is the only legal access. I think it's best to remain quiet about access from the top, lest they decide to pull 5-O off the menu for that very reason.
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Tryouts and a process of elimination is the way to go. If you clean the climb from behind the houses, you should get to proceed. If you don’t make the climb, turn around and go ride elsewhere. Bicycles with motors are not eligible.
 
Aliso has been ticketing ... and the eBikers have already found their way around it. I know one of the people with one of these loopholes, and she is hardly anyone's definition of handicapped or disabled. They will get us all banned, just a matter of time.

Screenshot_20180918-222847_Facebook.jpg
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sir crashalot said:
Wait.. I thought it was posted on this site recently that a disabled placard did NOT give someone the legal right to ride an ebike in oc parks??
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I do not know, but per the posts tonight in SOCMTBR and the eBike advocacy FB page ... it is working. The advocacy page even has step by step instructions on how to ride there without getting ticketed .
 
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