Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

pperrelle said:
I rode Aliso this morning. The rangers were out in force. There were two rangers on Wood Canyon and an OC Sheriff sitting in his vehicle at the bottom of Cholla. The first Ranger was right where 5 Oaks meets Wood Canyon and the second one was where the closed part of Coyote Run connects back to Wood Canyon I believe. Not sure if they were looking for poachers or E-bikes, but I was surprised to see them there. Specially the Sheriff. They all just said good morning when we rode past. This was right at 7 am, so they were out early. I’ve been riding Aliso for over 20 years and have maybe seen one Ranger on the trail the entire time.

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Based on this photo, I hope you took your road bike :inlove:
 
SnakeCharmer said:
The majority of those riders know that they were rolling in the wrong, riding unsafely, and/or exceeding the speed limit when they are doing it. People aren't that stupid.
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First off, yes, people are that stupid.

However, I agree with herzalot that **legally**, people can absolutely claim ignorance and be 100% right. I ride up there maybe once every couple years and have no ideas whatsoever what any of the trail names are (other than Mathis and Car Wreck), how to get to them or whether they are illegal or not. I'm not going to re-post my signage argument again but no signs or other deterrents = open trail to the average Joe.
 
mtbMike said:
First off, yes, people are that stupid.

However, I agree with herzalot that **legally**, people can absolutely claim ignorance and be 100% right. I ride up there maybe once every couple years and have no ideas whatsoever what any of the trail names are (other than Mathis and Car Wreck), how to get to them or whether they are illegal or not. I'm not going to re-post my signage argument again but no signs or other deterrents = open trail to the average Joe.
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Ignorance is another common human trait and it is not an excuse for anything. Assumption is ignorance.

Offender: This trail is illegal? I assumed it was OK to ride it.

Johnny Law: Well, you assumed wrong. Now, sign on the dotted line...

I will bet the pinkslip to my bike that 90%+ of the riders at any given popular riding destination are completely familiar with the area, so playing dumb isnt going to work. Law enforcement knows that.
 
SnakeCharmer said:
Ignorance is another common human trait and it is not an excuse for anything. Assumption is ignorance.

Offender: This trail is illegal? I assumed it was OK to ride it.

Johnny Law: Well, you assumed wrong. Now, sign on the dotted line...

I will bet the pinkslip to my bike that 90%+ of the riders at any given popular riding destination are completely familiar with the area, so playing dumb isnt going to work. Law enforcement knows that.
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OK, just for you, I'll reiterate my post regarding signage. I worked in law enforcement for a total of 31 years. I spent 12 Summers working on a Beach Team writing so many tickets your head would spin (147 in one day on July 4th without moving 50 feet) for petty violations like riding on a closed trail. Needless to say, I've been to court hundreds of times and inadequate signage is a frequent argument made by those that received a citation. Luckily the City of San Diego has no problem with sign pollution and they are everywhere. Whether you want to believe it or not, adequate signage is required by law. Can a Ranger or Deputy write a citation? Absolutely. However, if there's inadequate signage and the offender goes to court, the charge should be dismissed. Down here in San Diego, some authorities wrote a plethora of citations at an area know as Tunnels several years ago before signage was placed and they all got tossed....the citations that is. My partner wrote 30+ tickets during the America's Cup one year in a an area where there *was* signage but the judge ruled the signs were spaced too far apart and the officer had to dismiss all the citations.

One that blows me away to this day was an illegal U-Turn citation I wrote in Mission Beach. There was a sign at the intersection right next to the signal that said "NO U TURN". A guy made a U-Turn right in front of me and I wrote him a citation. Even though the offender was 100% English speaking US citizen, the citation was thrown out because it was supposedly required to be a "U" circled in red with a slash through it to be enforceable. Even cops don't know everything. That same "NO U TURN" sign is still there to this day, 15 years later.
 
mtbMike said:
OK, just for you, I'll reiterate my post regarding signage. I worked in law enforcement for a total of 31 years. I spent 12 Summers working on a Beach Team writing so many tickets your head would spin (147 in one day on July 4th without moving 50 feet) for petty violations like riding on a closed trail. Needless to say, I've been to court hundreds of times and inadequate signage is a frequent argument made by those that received a citation. Luckily the City of San Diego has no problem with sign pollution and they are everywhere. Whether you want to believe it or not, adequate signage is required by law. Can a Ranger or Deputy write a citation? Absolutely. However, if there's inadequate signage and the offender goes to court, the charge should be dismissed. Down here in San Diego, some authorities wrote a plethora of citations at an area know as Tunnels several years ago before signage was placed and they all got tossed....the citations that is. My partner wrote 30+ tickets during the America's Cup one year in a an area where there *was* signage but the judge ruled the signs were spaced too far apart and the officer had to dismiss all the citations.

One that blows me away to this day was an illegal U-Turn citation I wrote in Mission Beach. There was a sign at the intersection right next to the signal that said "NO U TURN". A guy made a U-Turn right in front of me and I wrote him a citation. Even though the offender was 100% English speaking US citizen, the citation was thrown out because it was supposedly required to be a "U" circled in red with a slash through it to be enforceable. Even cops don't know everything. That same "NO U TURN" sign is still there to this day, 15 years later.
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Thanks for giving us the law enforcement perspective... :thumbsup:

And, just for the record, I got your signage argument the first time... :D:p
 
mtbMike said:
OK, just for you, I'll reiterate my post regarding signage. I worked in law enforcement for a total of 31 years. I spent 12 Summers working on a Beach Team writing so many tickets your head would spin (147 in one day on July 4th without moving 50 feet) for petty violations like riding on a closed trail. Needless to say, I've been to court hundreds of times and inadequate signage is a frequent argument made by those that received a citation. Luckily the City of San Diego has no problem with sign pollution and they are everywhere. Whether you want to believe it or not, adequate signage is required by law. Can a Ranger or Deputy write a citation? Absolutely. However, if there's inadequate signage and the offender goes to court, the charge should be dismissed. Down here in San Diego, some authorities wrote a plethora of citations at an area know as Tunnels several years ago before signage was placed and they all got tossed....the citations that is. My partner wrote 30+ tickets during the America's Cup one year in a an area where there *was* signage but the judge ruled the signs were spaced too far apart and the officer had to dismiss all the citations.

One that blows me away to this day was an illegal U-Turn citation I wrote in Mission Beach. There was a sign at the intersection right next to the signal that said "NO U TURN". A guy made a U-Turn right in front of me and I wrote him a citation. Even though the offender was 100% English speaking US citizen, the citation was thrown out because it was supposedly required to be a "U" circled in red with a slash through it to be enforceable. Even cops don't know everything. That same "NO U TURN" sign is still there to this day, 15 years later.
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I am pro-law enforcement, being raised in a family of such. I say write the tickets anyway because it still makes the offender, and oh yes, they are OFFENDERS, reconsider what they are doing. Heck if I was your CO when you were still in service, I would have had you continue to write citations even if we knew they'd get thrown out, until we were ordered to stop by a judge or higher power. You did good @mtbMike. :thumbsup:

My point is, an offender is an offender and they know damned well they are offenders, whether there is adequate signage or not. Let the law enforcement "harassment" continue until the there has been an agreement reached between the users and the powers that be OR until the offenders stop offending. And not just in the area that this thread is about, I mean everywhere.:laugh:
 
Cisco said "Up here in WA you have EMBA. I can tell you first hand that what they are doing up here in WA, they are doing it right. They work and build MTB specific trails"
That's absolutely right. I grew up in and around Seattle, started mountain biking about 1996, and watched Evergreen Mountain Bike Alliance grow from a grassroots volunteer group to an effective non-profit that has made a lot happen, especially in the last 10 years. Look at all the trail projects planned and in work from their website: https://www.evergreenmtb.org/trails/projects
And this in a place where mountain biking is practically a seasonal activity due to the winter/rain.
I believe they have paid permanent staff and executive director, lobbyists, get grants from state, local and city governments for trail building and maintenance. They have a good reputation with the land managers.
I was surprised when I moved here I found there was nothing comparable, at least in OC and especially for Aliso/LCWP (besides SHARE).
I thought with the population here, and the year-round riding, it would be different.

Now I'm a hypocrite to call this out, because these groups rely on volunteers, and I'm lucky if I get to ride once or twice a week (and sometimes that's just a Floop), let alone have time to volunteer for advocacy or trail work. But I was a dues paying member of Evergreen when I lived there, just because they got so much done, I was glad to contribute.

My suggestion? I don't know, help SHARE out some more I guess?

PS I rode Aliso today, and saw quite a few bikes for a Monday, but not a single E-bike :)
 
Didn't know about the meeting tonight. I was at a different meeting - work related. Thank you to any Aliso rider who went and acted in a professional and diplomatic manner.

BTW, I worked with Mo on his script for his next video. You may be surprised. Yes, he was sarcastic on one video, but he has been doing A LOT of thinking about this problem recently.
 
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I went to the SHARE meeting last night. Not a whole lot to report. They were all aware of this thread, but had not heard anything from park sources re closure of trails to mountain bikes. Lots of other great discussions though.

The next SHARE board meeting is October 8th at 6:30, location TBD. I encourage any of you OC dwellers concerned with mountain bike access to attend. It was very informative, and I will be attending and getting more involved to ensure not only continuing access to our parks, but more and better access.
 
I arrived late, so missed most of the meeting, so don’t have anything of substance to add

But I believe the next meeting will be at the same Sharky’s (Newport Coast) again. Obviously I’ll update the site and FB as soon as I have 100% confirmation.
 
Lurking (as always), and yes I poach the occasional trail, and yes I engage the Rangers at every possible opportunity as well as other trail users...you never know when you might run into the "lever" that tilts things one way or another.

This thread always comes up in (insert forum name) regarding (insert park name) because of (insert latest conflict) and will remain until (insert overreaction and eventual lethargic response) or we get tired of it and move on to something that affects only us in our backyard.

OC Park Rangers are not law enforcement...they don't have the manpower, budget, or desire. If you want to know the difference, talk to an LA County Park Ranger or one out In Riverside, where the training and use of firearms is necessary because of the issues they encounter.

The most basic level to voice concerns with the decision makers is to get involved in and around those who sit at the table. Without that, those who make the decisions lack the input or ability to make decisions that reflect the true breadth of the users of this resource. It can be SHARE, Rads, OC Government, Community forums, your local city's meetings regarding recreation, etc. Not all of us have the time to consistently participate, but try this: do it once a year. You may find out that you can do it twice a year. If everyone just gave a $&!? and did that (let alone engage in a way that the MTB community is heard and reputation enhanced through legitimate channels) we would be talking about things we'd rather talk about...like NICA, Kate Courtney, and the latest edit from Semenuk while waiting to drop in on a 1-way, MTB-only trail.

Think about it...be nice, take small steps, be friendly to a hiker, a rider, a Ranger. Its hard to say no when you're engaging. Its easy to say know when you only show up to ask for something or complain when its taken away.

Rant over.

I'll be back next month...or on a topic that gets people excited about riding.
 
littlewave said:
I went to the SHARE meeting last night. Not a whole lot to report. They were all aware of this thread, but had not heard anything from park sources re closure of trails to mountain bikes. Lots of other great discussions though.

The next SHARE board meeting is October 8th at 6:30, location TBD. I encourage any of you OC dwellers concerned with mountain bike access to attend. It was very informative, and I will be attending and getting more involved to ensure not only continuing access to our parks, but more and better access.
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I'm really glad to hear that. SHARE members showed up to one of MWBA's trail work days and the guys were solid and energetic. With the population and number of riders down there, the SHARE membership really has no reason not to be robust and widespread. Support them. Go to their meetings. Sport a jersey and hand out stickers. A solid, organized, and respected advocacy group will go a long ways with land manager relationships. Mountain bikers need to earn their space at the table, its not going to be just offered. Sounds like everyone here is invested and has good ideas about your local issues. Be a part of the solution. iMTBtrails rocks.
 
MnMDan said:
Lurking (as always), and yes I poach the occasional trail, and yes I engage the Rangers at every possible opportunity as well as other trail users...you never know when you might run into the "lever" that tilts things one way or another.

This thread always comes up in (insert forum name) regarding (insert park name) because of (insert latest conflict) and will remain until (insert overreaction and eventual lethargic response) or we get tired of it and move on to something that affects only us in our backyard.

OC Park Rangers are not law enforcement...they don't have the manpower, budget, or desire. If you want to know the difference, talk to an LA County Park Ranger or one out In Riverside, where the training and use of firearms is necessary because of the issues they encounter.

The most basic level to voice concerns with the decision makers is to get involved in and around those who sit at the table. Without that, those who make the decisions lack the input or ability to make decisions that reflect the true breadth of the users of this resource. It can be SHARE, Rads, OC Government, Community forums, your local city's meetings regarding recreation, etc. Not all of us have the time to consistently participate, but try this: do it once a year. You may find out that you can do it twice a year. If everyone just gave a $&!? and did that (let alone engage in a way that the MTB community is heard and reputation enhanced through legitimate channels) we would be talking about things we'd rather talk about...like NICA, Kate Courtney, and the latest edit from Semenuk while waiting to drop in on a 1-way, MTB-only trail.

Think about it...be nice, take small steps, be friendly to a hiker, a rider, a Ranger. Its hard to say no when you're engaging. Its easy to say know when you only show up to ask for something or complain when its taken away.

Rant over.

I'll be back next month...or on a topic that gets people excited about riding.
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OC Parks Rangers are in fact law enforcement officers. They are POST certified, carry weapons and can cite and arrest.
They have become more militarized. I've been to a few OC Parks concert and movie events recently and they are wearing tactical vests and weapons.

Still haven't seen one on a trail in awhile.
 
I'm not sure why Mo think that the current groups don't represent most of the riders.... They may not represent most of the riders he knows!
I believe that too many of us think that most other think like us. In fact, IMO most riders don't ride 6" bikes and believe that current "sanctioned" trails are challenging.

I believe that his intentions are solid. I'm not sure they will change the way any rider ride.
I hope that I'm wrong.
 
HBkites said:
I'm not sure why Mo think that the current groups don't represent most of the riders.... They may not represent most of the riders he knows!
I believe that too many of us think that most other think like us. In fact, IMO most riders don't ride 6" bikes and believe that current "sanctioned" trails are challenging.

I believe that his intentions are solid. I'm not sure they will change the way any rider ride.
I hope that I'm wrong.
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I’m really glad Mr. Awesome posted that.

You are correct that he’s got a limited perspective, but it’s not unexpected given his relative youth and high level of enthusiasm. And I’ve got to admit that the existing advocacy groups would benefit from listening to fresh perspectives and advocating for MTB as it is, rather than MTB as they remember it.

Tough issue though. We can be super neighborly and still lose out in the end. The crowds are just that bad.
 
^^The battle's not lost because it's not a battle. It's an alliance.

But it does need breath of fresh air, and Mo steps up and turns a negative into a positive. Best wishes to the new generation of riders on some of So Cal's best trails.

Thank you Mo!
 
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kioti said:
^^The battle's not lost because it's not a battle to begin with. It's an alliance.

But it does need breath of fresh air, and Mo steps up and turns a negative into a positive. Best wishes to the new generation of riders on Orange County's priceless trails.

Thank you Mo!
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Nope. It's a battle in the larger war about who has the right to access our public lands. The "concerned user groups" don't like mountain bikes and they don't care about statistics, or logic, or much of anything else. They only want mountain bikes eliminated from their environs. If you don't push back; if you don't claim your right to be there because you pay the taxes to allow it to exist, then you deserve to be excluded. It really is that simple.
 
Well, we've got the right to be there. Or should I say privilege. It's in the original plan. Along with the option of adding trails, like has happened with Lizard, Mentally Sensitive and Car Wreck.

Not saying we can't blow it.. but how 'bout we give peace a chance?
 
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