Is something Burning in OC

kioti said:
Of course, but federal rules banning the Holy Jim Volunteer Fire Dept. from using creek water to protect the cabins and the FS stating that they had a plan to protect the cabins does not allow for quick local suppression. And I'm not sure, but I don't remember the cabins having the standard brush (and tree) clearance that could've also bought some time--either to help protect the cabins or to keep a fire from jumping from the cabins to the forest. Maybe unavoidable in a narrow canyon like this, what with oak tree/habitat protections we have--although the oaks and/or natural topography didn't fair well in Saddle Crest, the new neighborhood across from the stables on Santiago Canyon Road. :confused:

There's also an interesting email exchange in the article's comment section between Holy Jim's Michael Milligan and Peter Fahnestock of the USGS concerning whether or not the cabins are situated in a flood plain (for a 100 year flood). It's my understanding that the recent study claims the flood line is 40 to 50 feet above the cabins. If true, that'd be a massive flood and possibly devastating county-wide. I've read in the past that the Santa Ana River floodplain below Santa Ana canyon was (or is) considered the biggest flood hazard west of the Mississippi, and Prado and 7-Oaks dams, along with river channelization, were built to protect that part of Orange County. "The Great Flood of 1862" was called a thousand-year flood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_River (see Floods, drought and legacy)
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Exactly, it really never been a question of “if” but “ when”. Eventually it was gonna happen.

However no one outside the canyon thought it could have been one of its own purposely because of a feud with neighbors. This is the part of the story we have only been provided with a small amount.

Now that it was started, yeah....all bets are off why certain things didn’t get done certain ways.
 
Danimal said:
The fire is causing a lot of suffering, I'm particularly saddened and almost in tears with the loss of wildlife and the suffering they are experiencing.
Unfortunately most can't out run the flames.

My recreational riding is of no consequence in comparison.
Trails will come back, homes can be rebuilt, loss of life is permanent. :cry:
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I’m with you, Dan. I can’t help but think of the two beautiful cats I got a chance to vid. I understand why wildlife is not a higher priority, but that still doesn’t stop my hurt for the suffering and loss of already-limited habitat.

Jason and everyone: Thanks for your grace.
 
Danimal said:
The fire is causing a lot of suffering, I'm particularly saddened and almost in tears with the loss of wildlife and the suffering they are experiencing.
Unfortunately most can't out run the flames.

My recreational riding is of no consequence in comparison.
Trails will come back, homes can be rebuilt, loss of life is permanent. :cry:
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Absolutely, this (protection of lives) is first and foremost. I just posted a map and commented on some trails that may/may not be burned, but that is secondary to the loss of wildlife, destruction of habitat, danger to firefighters on the ground and in the air, as well as the citizens affected in various ways by proximity to fire. Praying for the safety of all those impacted.
 
knucklebuster said:
Some maps updated... looks like Holy Jim from MD to the bottom is OK. The top of upper HJ/Coldwater burnt as well as top of upper Joplin. This is a 3rd party map but I had no problems with it loading up...... (I tried to load the official operations map .pdf but file is too big)
https://pjdohertymaps.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=38af98f710d94937a61eb0789211de54&extent=-13090723.1524,3978155.1571,-13061027.3669,3995793.0014,102100
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I'm unsure what you mean by top of upper Joplin. To me, upper Joplin is Main Divide (at the saddle) to Old Camp. That looks fine in this pic to me (so far).
Do you mean from the peak to the saddle? I believe I've seen that called Buckthorn.

sp-w-axis.jpg
 
Rumpled said:
I'm unsure what you mean by top of upper Joplin. To me, upper Joplin is Main Divide (at the saddle) to Old Camp. That looks fine in this pic to me (so far).
Do you mean from the peak to the saddle? I believe I've seen that called Buckthorn.

View attachment 42429
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Is that a trail or a road?

This was just posted less than 5 minutes ago on the InciWeb page for the Holy Fire....
"Steep inaccessible terrain will continue to allow the fire to spread into new areas and align for strong head fire runs and lateral movement. Fire continues to spread east and north with only limited spread to the west. The fire will continue to impact subdivisions along the foothills of Riverside County. There remains the daily potential for an "Elsinore" down slope event. The fire spread will be an impact to Orange County Subdivision of El Cariso Village. The atmosphere over the fire continues to be very unstable and will allow for large smoke column development and active to extreme fire behavior. Fire continues to directly impact communities during the next shift"
 
Rumpled said:
I'm unsure what you mean by top of upper Joplin. To me, upper Joplin is Main Divide (at the saddle) to Old Camp. That looks fine in this pic to me (so far).
Do you mean from the peak to the saddle? I believe I've seen that called Buckthorn.

View attachment 42429
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mtbMike said:
Is that a trail or a road?

This was just posted less than 5 minutes ago on the InciWeb page for the Holy Fire....
"Steep inaccessible terrain will continue to allow the fire to spread into new areas and align for strong head fire runs and lateral movement. Fire continues to spread east and north with only limited spread to the west. The fire will continue to impact subdivisions along the foothills of Riverside County. There remains the daily potential for an "Elsinore" down slope event. The fire spread will be an impact to Orange County Subdivision of El Cariso Village. The atmosphere over the fire continues to be very unstable and will allow for large smoke column development and active to extreme fire behavior. Fire continues to directly impact communities during the next shift"
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Upper Joplin/Buckthorn are the same thing in my book. The Singletrack that bypasses around the backside of the Peak.
 
mtbMike said:
Is that a trail or a road?

This was just posted less than 5 minutes ago on the InciWeb page for the Holy Fire....
"Steep inaccessible terrain will continue to allow the fire to spread into new areas and align for strong head fire runs and lateral movement. Fire continues to spread east and north with only limited spread to the west. The fire will continue to impact subdivisions along the foothills of Riverside County. There remains the daily potential for an "Elsinore" down slope event. The fire spread will be an impact to Orange County Subdivision of El Cariso Village. The atmosphere over the fire continues to be very unstable and will allow for large smoke column development and active to extreme fire behavior. Fire continues to directly impact communities during the next shift"
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In that picture is Main Divide in the saddle between Santiago and Modjeska Peaks... But also in the picture are 3 single tracks. Unless you know where they are, they are hard to spot. Upper Joplin or Buckthorn goes around the peak, Joplin drops into Old Camp, and there is a 3rd (probably overgrown) trail that runs from the top of Joplin to the turnoff for Modjeska Peak.
 
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mtnbikej said:
Exactly, it really never been a question of “if” but “ when”. Eventually it was gonna happen.

However no one outside the canyon thought it could have been one of its own purposely because of a feud with neighbors. This is the part of the story we have only been provided with a small amount.

Now that it was started, yeah....all bets are off why certain things didn’t get done certain ways.
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So, now do you finally agree with me that the fire started down low? :rolleyes:
 
mtnbikej said:
Exactly, it really never been a question of “if” but “ when”. Eventually it was gonna happen.

However no one outside the canyon thought it could have been one of its own purposely because of a feud with neighbors. This is the part of the story we have only been provided with a small amount.

Now that it was started, yeah....all bets are off why certain things didn’t get done certain ways.
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Agreed. Can't go back; only forward.

Consequently, I don't think it's Monday morning quarterbacking when the ideas are expressed fire after fire and not implemented (absolutely no disrespect intended, Jason, because we're on the same side).

If, as it seems, the Forest Service is greatly underfunded and doesn't have the financial, personnel or equipment resources to manage our forests proactively, that can be changed by Congress.

Also (as referenced in post #215) Bill Gabbert from fireaviation.com argues for the necessity of hitting these things hard in the beginning minutes. A comment quote concerning prioritizing a strong initial attack, from "Jerome" on that website on 6-9-2013:

"What would have been the cost if the entire mountain burnt?
As I said before, what really matters is the potential acreage (saved) and consequently the cost of operations(reduced)… That’s why Initial Attack is the way to go. Contain it while it’s small and buy time for ground crews so they put it out.
Maybe no other tanker was available…Maybe..maybe..

50 tankers in 2000 down to 15 in 12 years to cover the same territory. Don’t forget the importance of tactical spread; more Tankers and Bases for rapid response on smaller fires.
That’s what we should talk about…"

And of course, our common desire to close Cadillac aka Jeep Hill which we've been trying to do since the Santiago Fire of '07. An accidental off-road vehicle fire there could take out the entire remainder of the middle of this range, if this fire doesn't get it first.
 
Faust29 said:
In that picture is Main Divide... But also in the picture are 3 single tracks. Unless you know where they are, they are hard to spot. Upper Joplin or Buckthorn goes around the peak, Joplin drops into Old Camp, and there is a 3rd (probably overgrown) trail that runs from the top of Joplin to the turnoff for Modjeska Peak.
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Also, Lower Joplin drops from the STT near the top of Cadillac down to Rose Canyon. Egress currently closed and has been fought over for decades, which is a shame since it's a very nice trail. Despite the closure at the bottom, it can be legally ridden from the top down and back up again. It's a sort of mini-Motorway and well worth the out-and-back.
 
Faust29 said:
In that picture is Main Divide in the saddle between Santiago and Modjeska Peaks... But also in the picture are 3 single tracks. Unless you know where they are, they are hard to spot. Upper Joplin or Buckthorn goes around the peak, Joplin drops into Old Camp, and there is a 3rd (probably overgrown) trail that runs from the top of Joplin to the turnoff for Modjeska Peak.
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3rd= Saddle Trail
 
kioti said:
Agreed. Can't go back; only forward.

Consequently, I don't think it's Monday morning quarterbacking when the ideas are expressed fire after fire and not implemented (absolutely no disrespect intended, Jason, because we're on the same side).

If, as it seems, the Forest Service is greatly underfunded and doesn't have the financial, personnel or equipment resources to manage our forests proactively, that can be changed by Congress.

Also (as referenced in post #215) Bill Gabbert from fireaviation.com argues for the necessity of hitting these things hard in the beginning minutes. A comment quote concerning prioritizing a strong initial attack, from "Jerome" on that website on 6-9-2013:

"What would have been the cost if the entire mountain burnt?
As I said before, what really matters is the potential acreage (saved) and consequently the cost of operations(reduced)… That’s why Initial Attack is the way to go. Contain it while it’s small and buy time for ground crews so they put it out.
Maybe no other tanker was available…Maybe..maybe..

50 tankers in 2000 down to 15 in 12 years to cover the same territory. Don’t forget the importance of tactical spread; more Tankers and Bases for rapid response on smaller fires.
That’s what we should talk about…"

And of course, our common desire to close Cadillac aka Jeep Hill which we've been trying to do since the Santiago Fire of '07. An accidental off-road vehicle fire there could take out the entire remainder of the middle of this range, if this fire doesn't get it first.
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No feathers ruffled here Jim....I hear ya.

I agree....things should have been in place before something happened....if nothing else the Cranston Fire showed what was possible under our current conditions. The CNF would rather be reactive than proactive.

I remember the first time I went back into Trabuco in the mid 90’s....first thing I thought was how are these places gonna prevent a fire.

Yeah, there is too much red tape. The Canyon 2 Fire showed how poorly the multiple agencies handled that situation.
 
kioti said:
Also, Lower Joplin drops from the STT near the top of Cadillac down to Rose Canyon. Egress currently closed and has been fought over for decades, which is a shame since it's a very nice trail. Despite the closure at the bottom, it can be legally ridden from the top down and back up again. It's a sort of mini-Motorway and well worth the out-and-back.
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But that one isn't in the picture! :p Every time I ride past the top of it, I tell myself I need to give it a try...
 
Rumpled said:
I'm unsure what you mean by top of upper Joplin. To me, upper Joplin is Main Divide (at the saddle) to Old Camp. That looks fine in this pic to me (so far).
Do you mean from the peak to the saddle? I believe I've seen that called Buckthorn.

View attachment 42429
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As J mentioned, I was referring to the trail that bypasses Santiago Peak around the north side of the peak (labelled "F" on the map). Some call it Buckthorn, some Upper Joplin. Joplin proper is MD to Old Camp. As Jim mentions Lower Joplin goes from STT to roughly the Joplin Boys Camp but there is no legal way to get out to Rose canyon anymore. And as Faust mentions, there is another singletrack (@oldandintheway called it "saddle ST") from top of Joplin to the Modjeska Peak access road (pretty overgrown the last time I road it a couple years ago). This map shows some of them... "F" is upper joplin/buckthorn.
Screenshot (10).png
 
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Dear Lord,

Please look out for all the brave people risking their lives fighting this fire and all the innocent critters who are losing their habitat. Please have mercy on all those people who risk losing their homes, livelihood and property.
Oh yeah, and please spare some MTB trails. Those OC folks are good people and need a place to play.

Amen



BikeMonster
 
kioti said:
50 tankers in 2000 down to 15 in 12 years to cover the same territory. Don’t forget the importance of tactical spread; more Tankers and Bases for rapid response on smaller fires.
That’s what we should talk about…"
.
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I had this discussion with some folks up in Oregon on my road trip last month. EVERY summer I'm in Oregon, there's multiple fires burning, usually from lightning strikes. They had 130, yes one hundred and thirty, fires start from one storm in July. Granted, most of them were put down quickly by "hot shot" teams but you get the idea. We talked about the lack of air tankers to suppress the fires. With the guaranteed amount of fires they know they'll get up there, how are they not focusing more money on air tankers? It's not like there aren't 1000's of aircraft sitting in desert airfields in Victorville and AZ that couldn't be modified for the job.

Not to get political, but at least up there, the MTBR's I was riding with in Ashland blame the Governor for her mixed up priorities. Lord knows I believe we should be spending our money more effectively down here.
 
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