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Lost Kiwi said:
I'm not advocating taking away the right to own firearms at all, I'm advocating for gun control.

What does gun control look like?

Well in NZ these days I can still own a gun if I want to. Sure I can't walk into Walmart and buy one over the counter but I can still get my hands on one if I want to. Now granted the process is a touch arduous for a generation that expects immediate gratification. But in my humble opinion being responsible for owning something that has the ability to kill or maim others en masse (like say a motor vehicle) should come with some checks that you are appropriately capable of handling such a responsibility (like say a drivers license and car insurance).

Whats the process look like to own a gun in NZ?

Well first I have to buy the learners manual. Once I've studied that and learnt it I sit a test. After that I need to buy approved secure equipment to store my guns and ammunition in (they need to be kept separately). Finally the police come and review my secure storage and interview me to make sure I am of sound mind. After all that I have a gun license and I am able to purchase a gun. What guns I can purchase depend on my license. I can't have an assault rifle or anything larger than a certain magazine size. Hand guns face higher license requirements and more scrutiny etc etc.
Going from a hazy memory here (its been a while) but my license only lasts for a certain period of time and then I have to renew to keep it valid.
If I'm caught doing something stupid with my gun then the penalty is severe and I will lose my license and have my gun taken off me.

Now I get the argument that always crops up. What about the criminals and illegal guns? Well, sure, I can buy a gun in NZ on the black market without a license but guess what? Those guns are feckin expensive. Like $20k or more. The people buying them are not your common street thug, more like your organized criminal type (mafia, bikie gang etc) and they have a tendency to use those guns to take each other out, not run amok in -insert public place filled with innocent bystanders here -. The very same thing happened in Australia after they introduced gun control following Port Arthur. Same again in the UK.

I'm well aware of the 2nd Amendment having just spent a week in Tennessee (were I was quite impressed not to get myself shot :D) but come on, if you can't change something called an amendment what can you change? It’s ave been done in the past so why can't it be done again?
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Have you purchased a firearm here? The process is quite similar. For a handgun you have to pass a written test and demonstrate that you know how to handle it properly. Then you get your handgun safety certificate which I believe is valid for 4 years. Then you can purchase the firearm, but you can’t leave with it for 10 days while they do a federal background check. If you’re a prohibited person(felon, past history of domestic violence, etc) you get denied and the FFL will not let you buy it. If you pass, you have to show proof that you have a safe at home to store it properly and you are required to buy a trigger lock before you leave the store after the 10 day wait period. You can’t buy an AR 15 and you can’t buy a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. CA also restricts the sale of several off roster firearms. Your comment about walking into Walmart and walking out with a firearm with your milk and eggs is not a reality.
 
pperrelle said:
Have you purchased a firearm here? The process is quite similar. For a handgun you have to pass a written test and demonstrate that you know how to handle it properly. Then you get your handgun safety certificate which I believe is valid for 4 years. Then you can purchase the firearm, but you can’t leave with it for 10 days while they do a federal background check. If you’re a prohibited person(felon, past history of domestic violence, etc) you get denied and the FFL will not let you buy it. If you pass, you have to show proof that you have a safe at home to store it properly and you are required to buy a trigger lock before you leave the store after the 10 day wait period. You can’t buy an AR 15 and you can’t buy a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds. CA also restricts the sale of several off roster firearms. Your comment about walking into Walmart and walking out with a firearm with your milk and eggs is not a reality.
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Wow, someone finally got there! In California (due to some basic gun control) its a bit harder to buy a gun than in other states. Guess now is a good time to quote ca.gov...

California Ranked #1 for Gun Safety, Death Rate 37% Lower than National Average
In 2021, California was ranked as the #1 state for gun safety by Giffords Law Center, and the state saw a 37% lower gun death rate than the national average. According to the CDC, California’s gun death rate was the 44th lowest in the nation, with 8.5 gun deaths per 100,000 people – compared to 13.7 deaths per 100,000 nationally, 28.6 in Mississippi, 20.7 in Oklahoma, and 14.2 in Texas. California’s gun death rate for children is also lower than other states, and is 58% lower than the national average.

I wonder if there's some sort of correlation, maybe someone should do a study on that!

Shall we move onto the next argument?
You need a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun
Back to Cooks Corner and you're going to have to help me out here, was the ex law enforcement officer from Ventura County a good guy or a bad guy? Cos I thought law enforcement was the good guys?

Anyhow back to @Danimal's amazing new budgie smugglers / I mean strides / pants, feck what do you call them here?
 
SnakeCharmer said:
I'd love to improve America but society doesn't want to work together. The Individualism idea is driving us apart instead of helping us work together. Until we are actually all on the same team, things will never get better. .
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I do agree with this. We have given up on our former focus of helping others - which is now seen as weakness (sheep) - in favor of runaway individual liberty - which is seen as bravado or strength (lions). Unless that liberty is allowed for women - then it's wrong.

Obsidian said:
Careful man! Hitting people around here with any truth/fact that contradicts their programming is dangerous around here.
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Those data do not refute my gun death assertion. They only point out that more people die from other things. I never said they didn't.

I love the implied logic that "more people die from drunk drivers, so we shouldn't try to do anything about gun violence" Beautiful!
 
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Y-not said:
And your solution to this problem ?
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A wide variety of reasonable limits (we might call that "well-regulated" - a clause that is completely ignored by the 2A crew) similar to the limits that we accept about most military weaponry - might be a step in the right direction. That would have done nothing in this case, but would decrease the ease of mass casualty shootings. Doing nothing doesn't work. We can be better.

Blaming mental illness is interesting since that either implies we need to assign people to (effective) therapy BEFORE they commit a heinous violent crime, when it is usually the heinous violent crime that is used to define the person's mental illness. The people who are comfortable with the mental illness explanation (as a diversion from any gun legislation) would cringe at the thought of mandated wellness training, or a "pre-criminal" diagnosis and mandated therapy (as would I).
 
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Y-not said:
And the problems associated with guns, if eliminated, would still be problems and just move to another item.... like cars, knives baseball bats, bows and arrows, sticks and stones ? ?
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Tortured logic... and definitely by the script. But hey, I'll play. Sooooo by your logic, why aren't we allowed tanks, howitzers, and other military weaponry? Which limits are OK and which are not? And why? And who gets to decide that?

Anyway - I think we better pull this back before one of you ends up shooting me next time we ride. I appreciate that we are able to examine each others' thoughts and pre-programmed responses. I choose to believe that this dialogue is all in an attempt to find a way to build a better society.

In the case of Cook's Corner - this appears to be an unfortunate, ol' fashioned crime of passion from a man who couldn't find another way of dealing with his divorce. I have no problem with a retired police officer owning legally obtained handguns (or a shotgun) with limited capacity. It's a shame he couldn't cope in a different way, and tragic that shooting people was his chosen solution.
 
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SnakeCharmer said:
... get rid of the guns and you'll get rid of the problems associated with them.
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Let me quote some northern liberals who agreed with you way back in 1975...

Hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself
So why don't we dump 'em, people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some old fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me?


Sorry, had to get in that ironic song lyric before returning to my previous attempt at peaceful closure.

So NOW let's say a prayer for the injured and deceased and their families, throw in another prayer for our collective futures, then go enjoy the freedoms of mt. biking, while we can.
 
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I enjoyed this civil conversation.
There is too much being done to divide our country and it is up to us, the individuals, to find the common ground and move forward.
Our enemy is not eachother, but the ones who want to destroy us, America and what it stands for.

Today I ride the Beast at China Peak !!!!!
 
IMTB law... Don't take time off. The inmates will go nuts. It strikes me after lightly skimming that we have as many categories to the gun debate as there are gender options on a California college application. Guns leading the way, I guess... Damn, I hope I don't make it on to Mikie's Wheel of Fortune with this post. Hmmm... Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing.

And @Obsidian will probably guess that I'm a card carrying member of the anti-gun squad, but as with most things, he'll be pretty far off. :laugh: I've been a gun owner since I was 12. Old fashioned, though... I see them as tools. The new obsessive culture around them scares the hell out of me.

And now, I'm going to go ride my bike on trails without bumpers and safety nets. LA... Land of the free trails. :p And I don't have to wait for the parking lot to open, or sign up a month in advance on the calendar.
 
Mental illness:

One of two things is happening. Either our methods of detecting this have improved and therefore, more sufferers are being discovered, or, mental illness is simply more common than it used to be.

If it is the latter, could it be that humanity's gene pool is becoming exhausted to the point of creating flaws? Or, could it be that humanity is so tired of being driven by the need for more money, instead of love, that we have reached the point of insanity?

Or, has there been this much metal illness all along, but just not detected?

In today's world, mental health science has a label for each and every one of us.
 
Faust29 said:
IMTB law... Don't take time off. The inmates will go nuts. It strikes me after lightly skimming that we have as many categories to the gun debate as there are gender options on a California college application. Guns leading the way, I guess... Damn, I hope I don't make it on to Mikie's Wheel of Fortune with this post. Hmmm... Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing.

And @Obsidian will probably guess that I'm a card carrying member of the anti-gun squad, but as with most things, he'll be pretty far off. :laugh: I've been a gun owner since I was 12. Old fashioned, though... I see them as tools. The new obsessive culture around them scares the hell out of me.

And now, I'm going to go ride my bike on trails without bumpers and safety nets. LA... Land of the free trails. :p And I don't have to wait for the parking lot to open, or sign up a month in advance on the calendar.
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:Roflmao That post made me laugh at least 4 times. :Roflmao We need more humor around here. :p
 
Faust29 said:
And @Obsidian will probably guess that I'm a card carrying member of the anti-gun squad, but as with most things, he'll be pretty far off. :laugh: I've been a gun owner since I was 12. Old fashioned, though... I see them as tools. The new obsessive culture around them scares the hell out of me.
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And I'm probably the only one on this forum who brought a loaded 30/30 Winchester to high school on a fairly regular basis. :eek: ...wearing a buck knife on my belt, of course. Actually, mine was an "Old Timer" brand, but same idea. The rifle stayed in the truck however.
 
herzalot said:
And I'm probably the only one on this forum who brought a loaded 30/30 Winchester to high school on a fairly regular basis. :eek: ...wearing a buck knife on my belt, of course. Actually, mine was an "Old Timer" brand, but same idea. The rifle stayed in the truck however.
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I had the standard "gun rack in the back window" in high school, as well as getting the first day of deer season as an excused absence as long as I presented my hunting license...

But... In 7th grade, I took a .22 pistol to school so the shop teacher could help me with the finish on the grips... o_O


Back to the bumpy trails! And Pat just rolled in... WE're determining route. Might have to build in some bailouts. :laugh:
 
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herzalot said:
And I'm probably the only one on this forum who brought a loaded 30/30 Winchester to high school on a fairly regular basis. :eek: ...wearing a buck knife on my belt, of course. Actually, mine was an "Old Timer" brand, but same idea. The rifle stayed in the truck however.
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Yep that's our generation. I grew up in Eastern L.A. county and had the gun rack often sporting rifle while parked at HS for class. Not a thought of any problems or that it might get stolen. But then there was also a smoking area set up by the school. I'm guessing that official high school smoking areas are no longer PC either.

And @Faust29 , the first day of deer season is an official paid day off for the company I work for. Part of their union contract.....ah, rural companies.:cool:
 
Pretty high-larious.
I appreciate this has all been civil. The posts are at least… who knows what’s going on in your heads, or the heads of others not posting and just lurking. But who knows what your thinking of others posting on a political topic which imtbtrails does not allow political topics due to the potential volatility.

Talking about the self control in society, you all don’t even have the self control to simply NOT talk on topics that we all decided to not allow here on a Mountain Bike Forum. What does that say about your self control?

Does this mean we have a double standard? Rules for me, but not for thee?

I banned El Immigrante due to politics. Hill^billy twice now, a close friend of mine because he posted politics. Is that just because Doug was posting topics you didn’t like, or disagreed with, or in your opinion what was important to him you blew off as conspiracy and ruled unacceptable? The private messages I got!

The politics I’m MORE concerned with here is the topic of violating our common goal to not talk politics. I have been harsher on conservative views on here than others and I’m a staunch conservative. That comes from my concern you would call me out as bias.

I also own every bit of the guns some of you are wishing are banned. Some here want all my guns taken away. So let me ask you? Are we friends still? Are we friends because I firmly believe I should keep my guns? Or let me ask you this? How do you think I feel about you, now that you have tainted a core value I firmly believe in?

The point is…
We don’t talk politics on imtbtrails so we all have a fun mountain bike relationship. A relationship not tainted by politics. You all are doing a great job of ruining that, and the purpose of this Site.
 
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Mikie said:
Pretty high-larious.
I appreciate this has all been civil. The posts are at least… who knows what’s going on in your heads, or the heads of others not posting and just lurking. But who knows what your thinking of others posting on a political topic which imtbtrails does not allow political topics due to the potential volatility.

Talking about the self control in society, you all don’t even have the self control to simply NOT talk on topics that we all decided to not allow here on a Mountain Bike Forum. What does that say about your self control?

Does this mean we have a double standard? Rules for me, but not for thee?

I banned El Immigrante due to politics. Hill^billy twice now, a close friend of mine because he posted politics. Is that just because Doug was posting topics you didn’t like, or disagreed with, or in your opinion what was important to him you blew off as conspiracy and ruled unacceptable? The private messages I got!

The politics I’m MORE concerned with here is the topic of violating our common goal to not talk politics. I have been harsher on conservative views on here than others and I’m a staunch conservative. That comes from my concern you would call me out as bias.

I also own every bit of the guns some of you are wishing are banned. Some here want all my guns taken away. So let me ask you? Are we friends still? Are we friends because I firmly believe I should keep my guns? Or let me ask you this? How do you think I feel about you, now that you have tainted a core value I firmly believe in?

The point is…
We don’t talk politics on imtbtrails so we all have a fun mountain bike relationship. A relationship not tainted by politics. You all are doing a great job of ruining that, and the purpose of this Site.
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Understood but as we age, politics become more and more the top of our thoughts and focuses. Especially those of us who are against certain laws that have come into play here in this discussion. IMHO, it's a miracle that we don't explode and or post about political situations more often. In today's turned-around, messed-up, backwards world, how can we not?

I/we are trying to keep to the rules but every once in a while, when something hits home, like it has at Cook's Corner did, it's hard not to. :thumbsdown:

God bless you @Mikie! :inlove:
 
SnakeCharmer said:
Understood but as we age, politics become more and more the top of our thoughts and focuses. Especially those of us who are against certain laws that have come into play here in this discussion. IMHO, it's a miracle that we don't explode and or post about political situations more often. In today's turned-around, messed-up, backwards world, how can we not?

I/we are trying to keep to the rules but every once in a while, when something hits home, like it has at Cook's Corner did, it's hard not to. :thumbsdown:

God bless you @Mikie! :inlove:
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Many forget that you can build as big a private conversation thread as any member here wants. People can opt in or they can leave the conversation. I have always shared that private debates are open season. I don’t have access to those conversations so it is unmonitored. Obviously it does not mean it won’t promote a friendship disconnect, that’s the risk. But it keeps it off the public forum.

Otherwise, we are “supposed” to be kids on imtbtrails related to bikes, but adults otherwise. I say this because subjective discretion related to politics never works and that is why we have an Objective law of no politics period.

Otherwise, there is always: https://thepoliticalforums.com/

God Bless you as well Ssssssnakies! :inlove:
 
Mikie said:
Pretty high-larious.
I appreciate this has all been civil.

The point is…
We don’t talk politics on imtbtrails so we all have a fun mountain bike relationship. A relationship not tainted by politics. You all are doing a great job of ruining that, and the purpose of this Site.
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Welp - yep - I am guilty of talking about topics that one might consider political (although I do not advocate a particular political point of view so much as just call out inconsistent thinking and talking-point parroting when I see it and try to generate some reasoned discussion). I don't think it's possible to talk about mt biking without bumping into "political" topics such as trail usage, legislation and law enforcement, behavior of others, trespassing, car break ins, dogs off leash, e-bikes, motorcycles, rude drivers, loud music, drunk people, taxes, climate, parenting choices, illness/health and shootings at a local spot that all us OC types park at or near and ride by often.

My point is - you @Mikie have done a masterful job of keeping us civil, as is evidenced by the posts in this thread. When others go way out of bounds with political crap, you ban them. We will always bump up against potentially political topics, but for the most part - we respect and abide by the boundaries you expect.

And c'mon - I quoted Lynyrd Skynyrd! :thumbsup: :cool:
 
herzalot said:
Yes - I am well aware. That was my humorous quip - they were neither northern nor liberals. But weren't they from Alabama as another of their songs hinted? ;)
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The rabbit hole beckons...Sweet Home Alabama wasn't about Skynyrd. It was about the vast majority of the people of Alabama who didn't go along with the "guvnor" and that most non-Alabamans thought they were all racist hicks.

"In Birmingham they loved the guvnor...boo boo boo. Now we all did what we could do." Most people don't understand that line.
 
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