Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks
- Thread starter herzalot
- Start date
Obsidian
iMTB Rockstah
Just as easy as service dogs, and to quote from the https://www.electricmountainbikeassociation.org/ website .....
"a) There an exception for OPDMD device (including E-Bikes up to 24' wide) using the ADA 2010/11 DOJ Rule for OC Parks (does not apply to NPS or USFS).
http://www.ocparks.com/parks/trails/adaa
b) You only need to state that you are disabled and no public entity can ask
you the nature or extent of your disability."
Whatever, I don't ride Aliso or Laguna much. It will be a shame to lose Oaks, but I will manage.
SingleTrackJB
Well-Known Member
To pretend disability is unethical. I hope those people can be proud of themselves.
Thanks for posting this. It is shame people are like that.
Thanks for posting this. It is shame people are like that.
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
As I've said... This will head to the courts... And the ebikes will win.
I'm giving up on humanity.
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SnakeCharmer
iMTB Hooligan
It was my understanding that obtaining a handicapped placard is not an easy thing to do in California. Has that changed?
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
This is the state that allows high school kids to get marijuana for their ADD.
Seeing a 16 year old buy pot legally - which he promptly resold to friends- ended my faith in California's commitment to sane decisions regarding diagnoses.
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
So now real mtbers have finally realized they need to respect the trail system and the park rules, but the new crop of mostly uneducated motorbike riders don't give a f*** about anything and lie about handicapping conditions (deplorable) to go ride their motorbikes in the park.
I am guessing the local e-bike peddlers (retailers) are probably now telling their customers how to get a placard too.
Closing the parks to all bikes is now FAR more likely, since trying to change the handicap placard laws to close the loopholes won't happen.
Congratulations lazy ass motherf****ing e-bikers!
I am guessing the local e-bike peddlers (retailers) are probably now telling their customers how to get a placard too.
Closing the parks to all bikes is now FAR more likely, since trying to change the handicap placard laws to close the loopholes won't happen.
Congratulations lazy ass motherf****ing e-bikers!
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
There are quite a few legal provisions to ban the e-bikes, but that also won't happen. You're right... A blanket ban on anything with wheels is the easiest to enact and enforce.
So... Where are all the ebike trolls who used to pop out and say that diminishing access would never be an issue? Not that they are the sole cause, but they certainly didn't help....
Edit: This one should really build some good will with the hikers! https://www.pinkbike.com/news/nicolai-gearbox-rohloff-electronic-enduro-bike-interbike-2018.html Too lazy to pedal, and apparently, too lazy to shift...
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SnakeCharmer
iMTB Hooligan
I have a feeling that the braggart who posted about using a placard to get around the e-bike rule is going to get other cheating e-bikers in trouble (assuming the person who made that post is actually not handicapped). State fraud is a serious offense.
Somebody take pics of that posting before it gets erased! It's great evidence!!!
Somebody take pics of that posting before it gets erased! It's great evidence!!!
mtnbikej
J-Zilla
Yeah, but they obviously haven’t read far enough:
2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public entity that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual’s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuan
Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
The OC Park Rangers visit this site often now and in particular this thread, so I'm pretty confident they will see the above. However, it would be wise to forward this info to them so that we can be sure that they are aware of the illegal intentions. This may be a good thing as it clearly highlights the eBike communities willingness to break the law to obtain access. As we stand with the OC Parks in effort to be compliant, it will go a long way in our advocacy efforts. C'mon Kids! Be positive and lets work hard to show OC Parks our good intentions!
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
I was going to say that all of the criteria below should be weighed against the use of e-bikes in the parks... But sadly, they will be applied to all bikes. @herzalot is quite right in that we are our own worst enemy.
Note section "iii". I don't think the authors ever considered e-bikes zooming down Rock-It when this was written.
(i) The type, size, weight, dimensions, and speed of the device;
(ii) The facility´s volume of pedestrian traffic (which may vary at different times of the day, week, month, or year);
(iii) The facility´s design and operational characteristics (e.g., whether its service, program, or activity is conducted indoors, its square footage, the density and placement of stationary devices, and the availability of storage for the device, if requested by the user);
(iv) Whether legitimate safety requirements can be established to permit the safe operation of the other power-driven mobility device in the specific facility; and
(v) Whether the use of the other power-driven mobility device creates a substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment or natural or cultural resources, or poses a conflict with Federal land management laws and regulations.
Note section "iii". I don't think the authors ever considered e-bikes zooming down Rock-It when this was written.
(i) The type, size, weight, dimensions, and speed of the device;
(ii) The facility´s volume of pedestrian traffic (which may vary at different times of the day, week, month, or year);
(iii) The facility´s design and operational characteristics (e.g., whether its service, program, or activity is conducted indoors, its square footage, the density and placement of stationary devices, and the availability of storage for the device, if requested by the user);
(iv) Whether legitimate safety requirements can be established to permit the safe operation of the other power-driven mobility device in the specific facility; and
(v) Whether the use of the other power-driven mobility device creates a substantial risk of serious harm to the immediate environment or natural or cultural resources, or poses a conflict with Federal land management laws and regulations.
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
This FB group is organized and managed by one person, a guy named Steve Spiro who is a Real Estate broker in Laguna Niguel. His Strava profile:
https://www.strava.com/activities/1716288999
The group is tiny, by Facebook standards. I think a few pointed questions about what his group stands for - and whether it is an ADA group, or a group trying to get people to falsify information to get handicapped status - would go a long way towards clarifying the issue. Sounds to me like some butt hurt dude who bought an ebike to ride single-track and is now pissed that the state clarified rules regarding motorized vehicles in state parks. On his Strava profile, he is doing a lot of illegal e-biking on single track trails...
By the way - the ADA thing dates from 2011, and includes dirt bikes. If you have a handicapped sticker, you can ride dirt bikes in Aliso or any other OC park... as long as they meet the size standards in the rules.
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kioti
iMTB Rockstah
It's my understanding that you could access the park in a motorized wheelchair, but motorized bicycles are not considered mobility devices for OC park trails.
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
Actually at the bottom, it specifically bans all gas engines... And any engine that uses combustion.
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
I don't know the rule specifics. Personally, I think if you can drop Rock-It on a bike, it is hard to suggest you are mobility handicapped, but I go back to the days when "mobility handicapped" meant you couldn't walk unassisted.
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
And the way they worded the release this summer, that was the case... But it does not jive with their own ADA guidelines on another part of the site. They would be perfectly within their rights to ban them based on the DOJ assessment criteria (As Crystal Cove, USFS, etc... have done) but they have only added to the confusion.
"Why, Yes, Mr. Ranger, I am completely dependent on my e-bike for mobility... Except when I heft its 56 pound carcass off of my bike rack."
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Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
They are not mtbkers, they re emtbkers... There's a difference....
littlewave
Well-Known Member
Torrent77
Well-Known Member
There are many conditions that comply with ADA regulations for a handicap placard while still being able to operate a vehicle *AND* a bicycle. Such conditions that would enable a biker to fully experience the entire trail as opposed to a few miles with an ebike. These people are exercising their rights to access public lands to the fullest of their abilities. Am I advocating E-mtb? Plainly, no. But, I don't think people are skirting the rules so that they can ride legally on county land. That's shameful and I'm not going to quickly condemn someone based on a one sided story. 
mtnbikej
J-Zilla
There are many conditions that comply with ADA regulations for a handicap placard while still being able to operate a vehicle *AND* a bicycle. Such conditions that would enable a biker to fully experience the entire trail as opposed to a few miles with an ebike. These people are exercising their rights to access public lands to the fullest of their abilities. Am I advocating E-mtb? Plainly, no. But, I don't think people are skirting the rules so that they can ride legally on county land. That's shameful and I'm not going to quickly condemn someone based on a one sided story.
Being slow, not being able to keep up with your friends, being old..::::these are all the excuses I hear from the ebike crowd. These are not disabilities.
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
There are many conditions that comply with ADA regulations for a handicap placard while still being able to operate a vehicle *AND* a bicycle. Such conditions that would enable a biker to fully experience the entire trail as opposed to a few miles with an ebike. These people are exercising their rights to access public lands to the fullest of their abilities. Am I advocating E-mtb? Plainly, no. But, I don't think people are skirting the rules so that they can ride legally on county land. That's shameful and I'm not going to quickly condemn someone based on a one sided story.
Spend $5000 to $10,000 on an e-bike, only to have it deemed illegal on your trails? You might look to skirt a few rules. I would!
My wife easily qualifies for a placard... And I've suggested she get one. She has refused... Bluntly.
And not all public land has to have access for mobility conveyances. Is that right and just? Maybe, maybe not... But the land managers have the right to determine that some areas are better left off limits to motorized transport. Like their neighbors in Crystal Cove and the national forest. Far less confusion.
Torrent77
Well-Known Member
You technically could ask for a disabled placard but its your choice not to do so. I technically could get one too, but I too choose not to do so.
I'm sure there are many more MTBer who technically qualify and choose not to get a placard than the few who do so and also ride E-MTB. I hope we are all on the right side of this dilemma/conversation, but if political winds change, I would also hope that we don't come off as right-wing/left-wing radicals either or be lumped into a group that doesn't define who we truly are.
mtnbikej
J-Zilla
I don’t think any of us disagree that those with legitimate disabilities are excluded....the problem is most from the riders don’t qualify and are just using that as a BS excuse.
Once again the bad apples are gonna ruin it for everyone.
Dirtrider....
Well-Known Member
Forgive my ignorance and really not trying to bring up any ill will against those needing assistance... but i'm a little lost on how in the world do you even ride a two-wheeled bike (ebike or not) if you're disabled enough to need a handicap placard? especially on trails?? even the main fire road in Aliso is riddled with sand and some loose rocks that i would imagine pose an issue for a disabled person.
being old or asthmatic or etc... and needing some assistance is far different than being disabled to the point of needing a mobility device.
being old or asthmatic or etc... and needing some assistance is far different than being disabled to the point of needing a mobility device.
Torrent77
Well-Known Member
It's probably the same disability that lets people operate vehicles and drive on public roads. There are varying amounts of disabilities that enable people to operate machinery. What it doesn't test are people fitness levels. I suppose if your well enough to drive, then your well enough to ride a bike. You can't blanket ban people because bike riding involves mountains or rigorous terrain.
Faust29
iMTB Hooligan
Yes... Certain terrain (notice I said terrain and not people) can be deemed off limits to assistive conveyances for a variety of reasons. It specifically outlines this in the ADA guidelines issued by the DOJ. Whether or not that's right remains to be seen...
Edit: I know I'm sounding like a dick, but having trained thousands, and worked as a disabled advocate, the ebike "handicapped" angle is pretty damn frustrating. And the basis in disability law is pretty often misunderstood.