Boutique vs Major brands... thoughts?

YT, Canyon and soon many others... "boutique" brands that do MtB only at no haggle, rock bottom prices. We will just need to be self sufficient at all phases of bicycle maintenance, since our LBS will be closed or populated by those who only know how to work on hybrids, cruisers and kids' bikes. :thumbsup: But I get it. There's a huge difference between justifying $3000 for a great bike and justifying $6000 for an equivalent from a LBS.
 
Interesting Youtube video, similar to our conversation. Have a feeling Pivot, Santa Cruz and Evil come out of the same factory. Frames are beefy and heavy. Homepage for Genio bikes shows a form of VPP suspension bike, Similar to Santa Cruz. Trek (Have no idea, Giant?), Specialized (Merida since they own 49% of Specialized), and Giant (well Giant).

Also Pon Holdings is the owner of Santa Cruz. They also own Cervelo and Focus. Think funding shouldn't be a problem. With all their brands distribution and manufacturing will help them grow.

 
BonsaiNut said:
Is that your term for 95% of the world's population? :eek:
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Yep. Bunch of losers. :Roflmao

I stopped at the Mt Baldy Village restaurant to refill my 20 ounce water bottles at their awesome bottle filling station, and overheard some weirdo saying "The last 700 meters to the ski lifts climb 400 feet.

My rides occur in feet of elevation gain and miles of distance. Not meters of gain and kilometers of distance. After all, I ride in California, not France.
 
BonsaiNut said:
Hasn't Santa Cruz out-sourced all their frame production to Giant anyway?
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There are only a handful of carbon bike builders out there, Giant is on of the, well, giants.
herzalot said:
YT, Canyon and soon many others... "boutique" brands that do MtB only at no haggle, rock bottom prices. We will just need to be self sufficient at all phases of bicycle maintenance, since our LBS will be closed or populated by those who only know how to work on hybrids, cruisers and kids' bikes. :thumbsup: But I get it. There's a huge difference between justifying $3000 for a great bike and justifying $6000 for an equivalent from a LBS.
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I have more sympathy for the manufacturers than for the resellers, given my background that's probably natural. I've seen how dedicated the guys at the big three are to the sport. The little guys too. If a bike meets your needs and is priced right, then it's the right bike.

There hasn't been a single brand responsible for pushing design forward, but I see a pattern: If anything, the second-tier big brands probably push the hardest on tech. The little brands can't stray too far from tried-and-true, one bad year and they're gone. Specialized pits a big focus on gadgetry, Trek on custom paint jobs, and Giant likes to be two years late to any trend. But really, all these companies are fillled with smart people who could be making more money doing something else.

I watched a coworker go from somewhat indifferent rider, to getting stoked and buying a pricey bike at a local shop, to quitting our Dilbert cubicle farm to be an engineer in the bike industry. Part of the interview was essentially the gnarliest hour ride he had ever done. He had to take a major cut in compensation but the chance to do something he was passionate about was worth it.

On the flip side, the retailers need to recognize that their cheese has been moved, and get over it.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Metric is for the French and other pansies. It's also gibberish. Unless you grow up with it, it's meaningless...I happen to know that 1 km = .62 miles, but I still convert. The rest of the world needs to get with the program and use Standard. :cool: Meters are irrelevant.

And the speed of light is roughly 186,000 miles per second.
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From Wikipedia:

The mile is an English unit of length of linear measure equal to 5,280 feet, or 1,760 yards, and standardised as exactly 1,609.344 metres by international agreement in 1959.

"With qualifiers, "mile" is also used to describe or translate a wide range of units derived from or roughly equivalent to the Roman mile, such as the nautical mile (now 1.852 km exactly), the Italian mile (roughly 1.852 km), and the Chinese mile (now 500 m exactly). The Romans divided their mile into 5,000 feet but the greater importance of furlongs in pre-modern England meant that the statute mile was made equivalent to 8 furlongs or 5,280 feet in 1593. This form of the mile then spread to the British-colonized nations who continue to employ the mile. The US Geological Survey now employs the metre for official purposes but legacy data from its 1927 geodetic datum has meant that a separate US survey mile (6336/3937 km) continues to see some use. While most countries replaced the mile with the kilometre when switching to the International System of Units, the international mile continues to be used in some countries, such as Liberia, Myanmar, the United Kingdom, the United States, and a number of countries with fewer than one million inhabitants, most of which are UK or US territories, or have close historical ties with the UK or US.

The mile was usually abbreviated m. in the past but is now sometimes written as mi to avoid confusion with the SI metre; road signs in the United Kingdom continue to use m as the abbreviation for mile. Derived units such as miles per hour and miles per gallon, however, continue to be universally abbreviated as mph, mpg, and so on."

Which mile are you talking about?
Or are you just stating an alternative truth?
There are somewhere between 80 and 90 different miles. From 960 metres to 11299 metres. Only one meter. only one kilometre. Kilo mean 1000. Which is making most sense?
 
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Stating a reality...unless you grow up with the metric system, it makes no sense. I can tell you all day long that a meter is based on something or other, but it will still not stick. I know how long a statute mile is: 5,280 feet. I know how long a foot is: 12 inches. I know how long an inch is, because I own rulers and measuring tapes. :whistling:

There's a reason we haven't adopted the metric system, and it's mostly because it's no better (or worse) than what we use now - it's just different. The fact that it can be viewed and converted in multiples of 10 isn't relevant. It's what you know a mile (or kilometer) to be.

(I also know a bunch of nautical mile stuff, but that's also not relevant here...and most nations still use the nautical mile. Go figure!!!)
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Stating a reality...unless you grow up with the metric system, it makes no sense. I can tell you all day long that a meter is based on something or other, but it will still not stick. I know how long a statute mile is: 5,280 feet. I know how long a foot is: 12 inches. I know how long an inch is, because I own rulers and measuring tapes. :whistling:

There's a reason we haven't adopted the metric system, and it's mostly because it's no better (or worse) than what we use now - it's just different. The fact that it can be viewed and converted in multiples of 10 isn't relevant. It's what you know a mile (or kilometer) to be.

(I also know a bunch of nautical mile stuff, but that's also not relevant here...and most nations still use the nautical mile. Go figure!!!)
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I did not know that all feet are same size. I know a Norwegian mile is a bit more than 11 kilometres, a Swedish is a bit more than 10and both countries have a longer history of their way to measure things than US. The oldest mile I know of is from Israel and that is somewhere between 960 and 1160 metres short. British mile from where the US mile probably come is put together of miles from England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. All different, the English mile has changed several times in length. That sure is easy to understand. Divide by 12 or multiply by 26 is definitely easier than using 10, 100 or 1000 or what?
 
john_hovard said:
I did not know that all feet are same size. I know a Norwegian mile is a bit more than 11 kilometres, a Swedish is a bit more than 10and both countries have a longer history of their way to measure things than US. The oldest mile I know of is from Israel and that is somewhere between 960 and 1160 metres short. British mile from where the US mile probably come is put together of miles from England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. All different, the English mile has changed several times in length. That sure is easy to understand. Divide by 12 or multiply by 26 is definitely easier than using 10, 100 or 1000 or what?
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The inch, foot and mile were standardized long ago. That's why Home Depot can sell measuring tapes that indicate inches and feet.

Here's the point, which all here have missed so far: Unless you actually grow up with the metric system it will make no sense whatsoever. For those of use who grew up with the standard (read: real) measurement system, it makes perfect sense and we can relate to the distances or volumes stated.

The meter, hectare, stere, etc, are all irrelevant to me, because I don't know what they are. More than that, I don't care what they are. :rolleyes:
 
I went to a BMX shop today for the first time and chatted with a guy about bikes for a bit to see what I wanted (haven't even been on a BMX since the 90's). After a little bit of chatter I threw out the old "what was your name again?" with a handshake and it seems to be a good ice breaker. Being nice goes a long ways in many scenarios.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Here's the point, which all here have missed so far: Unless you actually grow up with the metric system it will make no sense whatsoever. For those of use who grew up with the standard (read: real) measurement system, it makes perfect sense and we can relate to the distances or volumes stated...:rolleyes:
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I actually thought you were being tongue in cheek and provocative for sport, but I now think you actually believe this to be true. Our measuring system is straight up kooky. I'm used to it and prefer it because I am used to it, but it's goofy. Besides - who doesn't want to drive 100kph instead of a paltry 62 mph?

On the other hand, saying it's 38° outside to mean that's it's unbearably hot just doesn't cut it. I do likes my Fahrenheit!
 
herzalot said:
I actually thought you were being tongue in cheek and provocative for sport, but I now think you actually believe this to be true. Our measuring system is straight up kooky. I'm used to it and prefer it because I am used to it, but it's goofy. Besides - who doesn't want to drive 100kph instead of a paltry 62 mph?

On the other hand, saying it's 38° outside to mean that's it's unbearably hot just doesn't cut it. I do likes my Fahrenheit!
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Units of measurement are inherently arbitrary. Go read the history of SI, the French revolutionaries thought they could invent decimal weeks, and thus be better revolutionaries. And somehow they tied the meter to the circumference of the earth, as if that mattered. (It doesn't).

In engineering school I preferred SI because we did lots of hand calcs and the whole "powers of 10" thing made the math easier. Then I realized that I had Lotus 1-2-3 on my xt turbo pc clone. For real engineering I prefer to work imperial, because my intuition is all set that way, and intuition equals speed, and time is money. My company badge is .030 inches thick by the way. But it only takes a couple seconds to get reacclimated, and if you ask me to dual dimension it's a quick change in the Preferences menu. Not a big deal.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Stating a reality...unless you grow up with the metric system, it makes no sense. I can tell you all day long that a meter is based on something or other, but it will still not stick. I know how long a statute mile is: 5,280 feet. I know how long a foot is: 12 inches. I know how long an inch is, because I own rulers and measuring tapes. :whistling:

There's a reason we haven't adopted the metric system, and it's mostly because it's no better (or worse) than what we use now - it's just different. The fact that it can be viewed and converted in multiples of 10 isn't relevant. It's what you know a mile (or kilometer) to be.

(I also know a bunch of nautical mile stuff, but that's also not relevant here...and most nations still use the nautical mile. Go figure!!!)
Click to expand...

I did not know that all feet are same size. I know a Norwegian mile is a bit more than 11 kilometres, a Swedish is a bit more than 10and both countries have a longer history of their way to measure things than US. The oldest mile I know of is from Israel and that is somewhere between 960 and 1160 metres short. British mile from where the US mile probably come is put together of miles from England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland. All different, the English mile has changed several times in lenght. That sure is easy to understand. Divide by 12 or multiply by 26 is definitely easier than using 10, 100 or 1000 or what?
bvader said:
This thread makes my 7 1/4 fitted hat size head hurt!
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If your head hurt already just wait till Runs with Scissors get so much influence that the monetary system will be changed to the beloved 12 scale and you get a half dollar coin, a quarter dollar coin, an eighth dollar coin, a sixteenth dollar coin and maybe even smaller coins, not to talk about the banknotes. The old 10, 20, 50, 100, 500 notes will thereafter be 12 dollar bill, 24 dollar bill, 48 dollar bill and so on. That will also help people to start using the head to calculate again. Many forgot to calculate when they got a smartphone. Supermarkets will then have problem with prices like 9.99$


About the mile (Wikipedia again):

The North American Datum of 1983 (NAD83), which replaced the NAD27, is defined in meters. State Plane Coordinate Systems were then updated, but the National Geodetic Survey left individual states to decide which (if any) definition of the foot they would use. All State Plane Coordinate Systems are defined in meters, and 42 of the 50 states only use the meter-based State Plane Coordinate Systems. However, eight states also have State Plane Coordinate Systems defined in feet, seven of them in U.S. Survey feet and one in international feet. State legislation in the U.S. is important for determining which conversion factor from the metric datum is to be used for land surveying and real estate transactions, even though the difference (2 ppm) is hardly significant, given the precision of normal surveying measurements over short distances (usually much less than a mile). Twenty-four states have legislated that surveying measures be based on the U.S. survey foot, eight have legislated that they be based on the international foot, and eighteen have not specified which conversion factor to use.

The international metric mile is 1500 meters and the mile used in US high schools is 1600 meters.


Do not tell me it is complicated. Tell me it is simple. And then make it complicated.
 
herzalot said:
I actually thought you were being tongue in cheek and provocative for sport, but I now think you actually believe this to be true. Our measuring system is straight up kooky. I'm used to it and prefer it because I am used to it, but it's goofy. Besides - who doesn't want to drive 100kph instead of a paltry 62 mph?

On the other hand, saying it's 38° outside to mean that's it's unbearably hot just doesn't cut it. I do likes my Fahrenheit!
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Not really unbearably hot until I start climbing from sea level to highest point on the island where I live, halfway up I am boiling and have finished my 3 litre Source container of water plus the 2 .75 litre bottles on my seat-post. 38 degree Fahrenheit (Fahrenheit is an old Dutch standard) is nice and cool.
 
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Runs with Scissors said:
The inch, foot and mile were standardized long ago. That's why Home Depot can sell measuring tapes that indicate inches and feet.

Here's the point, which all here have missed so far: Unless you actually grow up with the metric system it will make no sense whatsoever. For those of use who grew up with the standard (read: real) measurement system, it makes perfect sense and we can relate to the distances or volumes stated.

The meter, hectare, stere, etc, are all irrelevant to me, because I don't know what they are. More than that, I don't care what they are. :rolleyes:
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___________________________________

In one of only three countries on Earth that hasn't converted to a metric system of units and measurements, there is a huge amount of resistance within the US to change the status quo. Whilst the cost of switching would be huge, there is also a massive hidden cost in not switching when dealing with the rest of the world (except for Liberia & Burma, the only other two countries that don't use the metric system) With one of the largest organisations in the US, the military, using metric units extensively, why does the general public in the US still cling to their customary system of units?"

Metric is a heck of a lot easier to explain than imperial.

Look, 2.5 cm per inch, 12 inches per foot, 5 foot per fathom, 5280 feet per mile...and its 3 feet to a yard, which is kind of like a meter, but not quite... You have a simple and easily understandable system.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Metric is for the French and other pansies. It's also gibberish. Unless you grow up with it, it's meaningless...I happen to know that 1 km = .62 miles, but I still convert. The rest of the world needs to get with the program and use Standard. :cool: Meters are irrelevant.

And the speed of light is roughly 186,000 miles per second.
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I pulled you over for going 95 miles per hour. But Officer, I was only going roughly 65.....

I convert daily and am just fine with english measure. In fact prefer it. As the US is the biggest consumer of goods they need to do it our way...sheesh....
Now if you talk to my niece and nephew who were raised all over the world and now live in the US they'll tell you our system is wack, but what do they know. :)
 
I like that we blend metric and standard measurements to bring us 28 lb bikes made up of parts that weigh grams, top tubes that measure in inches and handlebars that are 780 mm wide. The fork should be discussed in mm of travel, but the rear travel shall be referred to in inches. I think "boutique" brands should change geometric measurements to be divisible by ten. This whole 360° in a circle thing is confusing, then calling temperature and angles "degrees" is really messing with my daughter's head.

Boutique brands should invent their own official "boutique" standard of weights and measures. That'll take care of those big companies who... hmmmm, constantly change standards to deliberately make things obsolete.

BTW, I am introducing Super Boost Minus - a 150 mm (5 11/16") hub spacing. Sure it's been done before on almost all DH bikes, but it was never called Super Boost Minus!



(for reference, Pivot introduced Super Boost Plus 157mm spacing last year).
 
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herzalot said:
I like that we blend metric and standard measurements to bring us 28 lb bikes made up of parts that weigh grams, top tubes that measure in inches and handlebars that are 780 mm wide. The fork should be discussed in mm of travel, but the rear travel shall be referred to in inches. I think "boutique" brands should change geometric measurements to be divisible by ten. This whole 360° in a circle thing is confusing, then calling temperature and angles "degrees" is really messing with my daughter's head.

Boutique brands should invent their own official "boutique" standard of weights and measures. That'll take care of those big companies who... hmmmm, constantly change standards to deliberately make things obsolete.

BTW, I am introducing Super Boost Minus - a 150 mm (5 11/16") hub spacing. Sure it's been done before on almost all DH bikes, but it was never called Super Boost Minus!



(for reference, Pivot introduced Super Boost Plus 157mm spacing last year).
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My SS has 0 0/0" inches of travel......or would that be .000" of travel?
 
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