tick
Well-Known Member
Boy do I know the feeling. I hiked Harding with the wife today...I am not planning to walk up to Cactus Canyon to visualize my crash however.Surprised it took this long for someone to wonder about that!
Hiked.
Herzalot
- Thread starter Faust29
- Start date
hill^billy
iMTB Rockstah
Is the owwie bubble where you hit the ground? Or can you give us an x marks the spot?
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Not quite sure. Probably past the bush, between the arrowhead and the tip of the "owwie" bubble. I did not tumble. Just a one hit slam.
hill^billy
iMTB Rockstah
I know what that slam feels like! And of course the shade does not look like a desirable line, my guess is to much speed took you there, and it all happens in a hurry! At least you know you will probably never roll that line again.
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
Here's what's really going to make @herzalot sad... I know about that step up on Rockit from when I climb it 
It is not easy to clear... you have to take the cheater line to the left (when viewed from below) and even then it isn't a sure thing. Coming from above it is easy to float over it on the way down and not really pay attention. But trust me, it's there
It is not easy to clear... you have to take the cheater line to the left (when viewed from below) and even then it isn't a sure thing. Coming from above it is easy to float over it on the way down and not really pay attention. But trust me, it's there 
Faust29
Moderator
Was it shaded like that at the time of the crash? Just wondering if the lighting at the time played a role...
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
It is a bit of a pump when climbing, that's true. Climbing that rock garden is tough, but kind of rewarding if you can do it all in one shot, and not take the cheater dirt line.Here's what's really going to make @herzalot sad... I know about that step up on Rockit from when I climb it
I thought about that. It was definitely in the shade, but at 6:00 pm on May 5, the shade was probably across the entire trail, making it actually easier to see than the high-contrast shading in this photo, which was taken around 3pm.
Last edited:
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Here's a shot looking back up the hill. Shows the terrain and the angles a little differently.
SnakeCharmer
iMTB Hooligan
I see dust/dirt on the slopes that would cause a wash out.
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
And the near vertical wall you can see in the first big bit of shade at the bottom of the photo, which is what I clipped. From this angle, you can tell that you have to be a moron to hit the line I did - or just fast and careless.
BTW - that section is one of the best suspension test runs in existence. Sustained and repeated 6" to foot-deep holes at speed and a need to maintain a specific line. That run will let you know in a hurry if your settings are off on your fork or shock (or tire pressure).
Last edited:
SnakeCharmer
iMTB Hooligan
Sheet happens. Bummer that it ended so badly but you're bouncing back. From now on, aim for "fast and careful".
Last edited:
doublewide
iMTB Rockstah
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
This is why I hate you!Wait, you don't ride fast OR careless...
j/k you know I could never stay mad at you.
Ebruner
Well-Known Member
Fwiw, I stay left of that main rut line that everyone uses. I do not like how that rock rut line moves you to the right which makes the exit of the rock garden awkward and puts you in the wrong spot for hte corner. Basically, I find that I'm better off, with more grip and more control if I stay on top of the baby heads instead of dropping into that channel. The low spots of the rockit rock garden are sandy and very slippery, where the rocks have the grip you need. Even though it's slightly off camber on the left side, it's an easier set of conditions to manage.
One last thing I've noticed about that section... is that there is a minimum speed that is required to smooth that section out. The last 20-30' starts to kick the bike into a natural resonance frequency type of thing that will cause it to start bucking front to back if you are under that minimum speed or if you are on the brakes. On that note, the rockit rock garden is one of the most obvious places to start to see some of the anti-rise or brake jack characteristics of the particular frame.
For example, one of the only shortcomings that I run into with the SC Megatower for example, is that the deeper into the travel that you go, the less it resists brake jacking from the back end. Meaning, that if you are on the brakes when the frame is past 50% of it's travel, it's going to start to extend the back end and by extension, skip across the ground instead of absorbing hits. Even if you are leaning back on the bike, the kinematics are going to pitch you forward when you grab the rear brake during large hits.
So the rockit rock garden is a perfect place to see this "weakness" in action as as you get progressively through the rock garden, you end up deeper and deeper into the bikes travel. Consequently, the rockit rock garden's baby heads gets bigger and bigger as you approach the end of it. Keep in mind, that this trait isn't necessarily a weakness for this bikes intended riding usage and the setup that the bike works best with. For the most part, an advanced rider is going to be doing controlled braking where it counts most (G-outs, and compressions) and having the bike add a little bit of bottom out resistance in these instances, is a good thing as you can run a lighter compression tune and still have some assistance from the kinematics of the frame during true o-Sh!t moments.
So... how would this information affect how you would ride a megatower on the rockit rock garden. Firstly, you would want to avoid touching the brakes in the portion of hte rock garden with the biggest hits (the end). For this reason you would want to bleed speed prior to the last 30' of the rock garden where the hits become bigger, and make sure that you are rolling through there off the brakes. Said another way, look to accelerate through the end of the rock garden, not decelerate.
This is also one of the contributing factors to the megatower performing better with faster rebound then other bikes of this class. That faster rebound allows the suspension to recover faster and get back to it's neutral sag point for where you have your most comfortable braking performance. It is also another reason that you should pay careful attention to how you are setting up the suspension on the mega. If you are tuning to use all of hte travel all the time, you are in a place in the suspension that the designers maybe didn't intend you to be for the hits that the bike is taking. This particular characteristic of the frame means that the bike will feel different, and react different on say a setup with more sag, and volume reducers to control bottom out (thus riding lower in it's travel on average) vs less sag and less volume reducers (riding higher and in a different spot in the anti-rise and leverage curves)
Ok... so enough technical pontificating. My opinion, for what it's worth... is that the rock garden on rockit is one of my least favorite sections of trail. As you mentioned Herz, it's the prototypical setup loop trail for suspension. Because of that, I've ridden it (like most of us have) a million times, and I now disrespect it compared to when I first started riding it. We've all seen this thing take even the most experienced riders out, with little to no warning. I attribute that to the fact that to ride it smooth, requires that you just let go, let off the brakes, and ride it as fast as you're willing to ride it. This means that an event, is undoubtedly going to be a big one... and that the true best way to ride it, is with cajones and not necessarily skill. There are a few spots like this in the oc pars, the baby head, marble right hand corner garden portion of chutes is another... where you're just managing an awkward portion of trail, and there isn't a ton of skill in it.
I wouldn't change the rockit rock garden in a million years... but that doesn't mean that I need to look forward to riding it any more. The last time I went down it, I averaged 22mph. You don't need a ton of skill to ride a straight line of bowling balls at 22mph, you just need to be dumb enough to try.
One last thing I've noticed about that section... is that there is a minimum speed that is required to smooth that section out. The last 20-30' starts to kick the bike into a natural resonance frequency type of thing that will cause it to start bucking front to back if you are under that minimum speed or if you are on the brakes. On that note, the rockit rock garden is one of the most obvious places to start to see some of the anti-rise or brake jack characteristics of the particular frame.
For example, one of the only shortcomings that I run into with the SC Megatower for example, is that the deeper into the travel that you go, the less it resists brake jacking from the back end. Meaning, that if you are on the brakes when the frame is past 50% of it's travel, it's going to start to extend the back end and by extension, skip across the ground instead of absorbing hits. Even if you are leaning back on the bike, the kinematics are going to pitch you forward when you grab the rear brake during large hits.
So the rockit rock garden is a perfect place to see this "weakness" in action as as you get progressively through the rock garden, you end up deeper and deeper into the bikes travel. Consequently, the rockit rock garden's baby heads gets bigger and bigger as you approach the end of it. Keep in mind, that this trait isn't necessarily a weakness for this bikes intended riding usage and the setup that the bike works best with. For the most part, an advanced rider is going to be doing controlled braking where it counts most (G-outs, and compressions) and having the bike add a little bit of bottom out resistance in these instances, is a good thing as you can run a lighter compression tune and still have some assistance from the kinematics of the frame during true o-Sh!t moments.
So... how would this information affect how you would ride a megatower on the rockit rock garden. Firstly, you would want to avoid touching the brakes in the portion of hte rock garden with the biggest hits (the end). For this reason you would want to bleed speed prior to the last 30' of the rock garden where the hits become bigger, and make sure that you are rolling through there off the brakes. Said another way, look to accelerate through the end of the rock garden, not decelerate.
This is also one of the contributing factors to the megatower performing better with faster rebound then other bikes of this class. That faster rebound allows the suspension to recover faster and get back to it's neutral sag point for where you have your most comfortable braking performance. It is also another reason that you should pay careful attention to how you are setting up the suspension on the mega. If you are tuning to use all of hte travel all the time, you are in a place in the suspension that the designers maybe didn't intend you to be for the hits that the bike is taking. This particular characteristic of the frame means that the bike will feel different, and react different on say a setup with more sag, and volume reducers to control bottom out (thus riding lower in it's travel on average) vs less sag and less volume reducers (riding higher and in a different spot in the anti-rise and leverage curves)
Ok... so enough technical pontificating. My opinion, for what it's worth... is that the rock garden on rockit is one of my least favorite sections of trail. As you mentioned Herz, it's the prototypical setup loop trail for suspension. Because of that, I've ridden it (like most of us have) a million times, and I now disrespect it compared to when I first started riding it. We've all seen this thing take even the most experienced riders out, with little to no warning. I attribute that to the fact that to ride it smooth, requires that you just let go, let off the brakes, and ride it as fast as you're willing to ride it. This means that an event, is undoubtedly going to be a big one... and that the true best way to ride it, is with cajones and not necessarily skill. There are a few spots like this in the oc pars, the baby head, marble right hand corner garden portion of chutes is another... where you're just managing an awkward portion of trail, and there isn't a ton of skill in it.
I wouldn't change the rockit rock garden in a million years... but that doesn't mean that I need to look forward to riding it any more. The last time I went down it, I averaged 22mph. You don't need a ton of skill to ride a straight line of bowling balls at 22mph, you just need to be dumb enough to try.
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Wow that’s comprehensive! I didn’t read all of this, but trust me, I don’t hit the brakes on that section. I ride it very fast, and very straight. Never been a problem - well, there was this one time...
I’ll read it more thoroughly this evening. Thanks.
OK - I read it all. You are correct. Hang on and hit your lines - mostly straight with a few adjustments. I learned long ago not to brake in critical sections of any trail (if possible) regardless of my bike's kinematics. I don't believe my get off was the result of brake jack or any other suspension oddities, it was a bad line right after I relaxed and was looking ahead to the next section. A momentary lapse of reason, if you will.
Your description of the trail as having baby heads or riding along bowling balls is a little misleading to someone who hasn't ridden the trail. I've always considered baby heads to be loose rocks about the size of a grapefruit. Nothing is loose on this trail. The bumps don't move.
But dayummm dude - you sure know your suspension kinematics! I could look at anti-rise, anti-squat, wheel path and leverage curves all day and I couldn't tell you what they actually mean. I know what the terms mean, and I know what more of it or less of it does, but the charts, not so much.
Wait a minute - that anti-rise chart is a little misleading. That's in the biggest rear cog (50t). If you are deep into your suspension in the 50t gear and you hit the brakes, the rear of the bike will rise. That must be a hell of a badass climb if you are deep into your suspension and hitting the brake in your 50t gear! Is it similar in say 32 x 14?
But yeah, the Megatower's curve is dramatically different from all of the other bikes featured. I don't know if that dramatically different curve makes it special in a good way or a bad way.
I’ll read it more thoroughly this evening. Thanks.
OK - I read it all. You are correct. Hang on and hit your lines - mostly straight with a few adjustments. I learned long ago not to brake in critical sections of any trail (if possible) regardless of my bike's kinematics. I don't believe my get off was the result of brake jack or any other suspension oddities, it was a bad line right after I relaxed and was looking ahead to the next section. A momentary lapse of reason, if you will.
Your description of the trail as having baby heads or riding along bowling balls is a little misleading to someone who hasn't ridden the trail. I've always considered baby heads to be loose rocks about the size of a grapefruit. Nothing is loose on this trail. The bumps don't move.
But dayummm dude - you sure know your suspension kinematics! I could look at anti-rise, anti-squat, wheel path and leverage curves all day and I couldn't tell you what they actually mean. I know what the terms mean, and I know what more of it or less of it does, but the charts, not so much.
Wait a minute - that anti-rise chart is a little misleading. That's in the biggest rear cog (50t). If you are deep into your suspension in the 50t gear and you hit the brakes, the rear of the bike will rise. That must be a hell of a badass climb if you are deep into your suspension and hitting the brake in your 50t gear! Is it similar in say 32 x 14?
But yeah, the Megatower's curve is dramatically different from all of the other bikes featured. I don't know if that dramatically different curve makes it special in a good way or a bad way.
Last edited:
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Probably not - but why they decided to declare that the chart was in the 50t chainring if it's irrelevant is interesting. I was joking about anti rise while climbing and compressing. Like I said, I don't understand the charts very well - however, I can certainly see that the Megatower is waaaaaaay different than the other bikes profiled, and doesn't offer much anti-rise deep in its travel. Lay off the brakes after a drop! I imagine that could be pretty inconvenient in a hardcore Enduro race where you do go deep and then have to slow for a turn. Catapult?
Last edited:
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Thanks @mike and @scan
I'm not really "back" but it felt soooo good to ride on dirt today, and while I was expecting my shoulder or ribs to complain, they did not. Standing and climbing was fine, descending was fine, even some braking bumps and light chop felt fine. I don't want to risk my ribs or scapula, so I'll stick to the less demanding stuff for a while. My target was July 4th. I beat that by a week for dirt, but I don't think I'll make that for real riding. 10 push ups and lifting my bike onto my roof is still the barometer for hitting actual trails.
Morning Update:
I feel great after yesterday's experimental fire road ride. No ill effects to shoulder, ribs, lungs, neck or back. Time for more!
Last edited:
Paul Schmidt
Member
Good grief man....was just catching up and saw all this. Late to the party apparently, as you're back up and riding...but holy hell man. Glad to hear you're recovered and ok.
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Yeah. kinda messed up a little on that run. Good to hear from you! Get out and ride, if you have a bike!
Oh, and I guess I should update while I'm here. I've done somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 mt. bike rides since late June. Shoulder is still weak and I can't seem to get beyond 85% healed. I'm sticking to lower gradient, small-bump trails (including Rock-It, Lynx, Luge and Lizard), but I don't think I have the structural strength to tackle steeper runs or those with larger drops or forced hucks - yet.
Also, this one got in my head more than any previous crash or injury. All I see when I ride is potential falls. Hopefully that will pass with time and I can get back to the type of riding I like to do. If not, I'll have some long travel bikes for sale.
Last edited:
Paul Schmidt
Member
Yeah. kinda messed up a little on that run. Good to hear from you! Get out and ride, if you have a bike!
Oh, and I guess I should update while I'm here. I've done somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 mt. bike rides since late June. Shoulder is still weak and I can't seem to get beyond 85% healed. I'm sticking to lower gradient, small-bump trails (including Rock-It, Lynx, Luge and Lizard), but I don't think I have the structural strength to tackle steeper runs or those with larger drops or forced hucks - yet.
Also, this one got in my head more than any previous crash or injury. All I see when I ride is potential falls. Hopefully that will pass with time and I can get back to the type of riding I like to do. If not, I'll have some long travel bikes for sale.
Remember, thats what happened to me when I bit it on Ash that time. I was never comfortable riding that Dare again. All I could see was crashing. It messed with me a long time, even when I got the new Yeti awhile back. I'm good with just decent trail riding now. My wife is a climber (she's been out though after a hysterectomy until just two weeks ago, so we started back small. But prior, she was avid...Cholla, Mathis, the usual suspects. But mostly steady single track and climbing. Nothing gnarly for either of us anymore.
Looking forward to getting up to Skyline....I heard the first part is pretty brutal though climb wise. We are going out each day to get our endurance back up.
So glad to hear you're ok my friend. I saw helicopter ride and I was quite concerned. My left arm never fully recovered from the elbow and it certainly didn't recover from the clavicle and Mumford procedure. I'm probably always going to be 80% in that left arm. Goddamn sun tour........
OTHRider
Well-Known Member
This is sooo true from my last crash (scapula too). It took a solid over the bars flop at Crystal Cove to feel normal again.
Cyclotourist
iMTB Hooligan
Proud member of the PTSD bike club. But for me it's corners... I really slow down in them much more than before I bumped my head. Guess it's the brain trying to preserve the meat sack!
Runs with Scissors
iMTB Hooligan
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
I agree with you 100% - and when was the last time THAT happened?Crashing really is contraindicated.
Runs with Scissors
iMTB Hooligan
bvader
iMTB Rockstah
Nice lifting over the head at an angle ... Definitely a milestone. Nice!!