Coronavirus. Not to be confused with Norcovirus.

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I’m pretty sure excerpting an entire article is not in compliance with the Fair Use doctrine, but since you are offering it as a public service, maybe News Corp will overlook it and choose not to get a court to shut down IMTBTrails for copyright infringement.:whistling::thumbsup:

Not sure how that got in there. I was trying to save it for off-line reading and it appeared. Not sure how to edit anything on here or I'd promptly remove it...
 
Yep... The Wall Street Journal explored this very topic today... Length of hospital stay (3 versus 12 days), ICU time (<1 versus 11 days) and rate of spread are what jumped out at me the most. The flu season is spread out over 6 months. Norm the numbers to the same time frame that we've seen Covid19, and the picture becomes clearer. They aren't in the same league.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-doesnt-flu-tank-economy-like-covid-19-11586511000

CORONAVIRUS

THE NUMBERS

Why Doesn’t Flu Tank Economy Like Covid-19?

Comparisons between two diseases--based on infections and deaths--missed range of differences

As one state after another issued economy-wrecking stay-at-home orders to counter the spread of the new coronavirus, skeptics asked a confounding question: Millions of Americans get the flu each year, and tens of thousands die from it. Why doesn’t the flu cause a shutdown?

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, up to 55 million Americans got the flu this season, and as many as 63,000 died.

In comparison, more than 450,000 have been diagnosed with Covid-19, according to Johns Hopkins University, and more than 16,000 have died.

But the numbers don’t tell the whole story.

For starters, the flu tallies are estimates of total flu burden, while the Covid-19 figures are confirmed cases only. Eventually, the CDC will estimate the total Covid-19 burden, but for now, the numbers are not an apples-to-apples comparison.

“We always know confirmed cases are an underestimate,” said Lynnette Brammer, who leads the CDC’s domestic influenza-surveillance team.

In addition, Covid-19 differs from the flu in how quickly it spreads, the length and severity of the illness, and the unusual demands a contagion with no cure places on medical staff and facilities.

Instead of gentle waves of cases cascading across the country over a span of six months, like the flu, a tidal wave of Covid-19 cases has swept over a handful of cities in half the time. The concentration of quickly amassing serious infections overwhelmed the affected areas, and the fear is that without social distancing—for now the only effective intervention—other places will have a similar experience.

A snapshot of the 2009 H1N1 influenza pandemic shows the difference in the speed of transmission between a raging flu and the new coronavirus. Comparing only laboratory-confirmed cases, in the first 102 days of the H1N1 flu pandemic, the CDC reported 43,677 illnesses and 302 deaths. In 22 fewer days, Covid-19 infected nine times more people and killed 42 times as many.

“The flu season is spread out,” said William Schaffner, an infectious-disease specialist at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville. “This is being jammed up in a short time frame.”

Covid-19 outbreaks have also been highly localized.

“You’ve got a hot-spot pattern instead of an even pattern,” said Emily Martin, an epidemiologist at the University of Michigan School of Public Health. “All the pressure is concentrated in small areas.”

New York, the state that has been hardest hit, surpassed 160,000 confirmed cases on Thursday, according to Johns Hopkins, accounting for about 37% of U.S. illnesses and 44% of deaths.

With too few beds and not enough staff to respond to the influx, the state resorted to converting hotels, a convention center and a tennis arena into temporary hospitals and called on retired doctors and nurses to return to work. This kind of onslaught doesn’t happen with the flu.

Other regions of the country are bracing for a similar deluge.

Last week, the University of Michigan Medical Center saw its number of Covid-19 inpatients climb to 166. In the coming week, it expects to have 300 to 350 coronavirus-positive patients in the hospital. The center, which has a total of 550 adult beds, typically admits 250 to 300 flu patients over the entire season.

“Usually, a hospital is a bunch of medical patients, surgery patients and cancer patients—it’s a mix,” said Adam Lauring, an associate professor of microbiology and immunology at the university. “We anticipate the hospital will be taken over by Covid-19 and medical patients.”

Not only are more Covid-19 patients coming into hospitals, they require longer care.

The median length of stay for adults hospitalized with seasonal flu is 3.6 days, according to research published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases.

In nine Seattle-area hospitals, where 12 of 24 Covid-19 patients died through March 23, the median stay was 12 days in the hospital, 9 days in ICU and 10 days on mechanical ventilators. (The median for survivors was 17 days in the hospital, 14 in ICU and 11 on a ventilator.)

“Approximately 20% of Covid-19 patients have needed supplemental oxygen,” said Frederick G. Hayden, an infectious-disease expert at the University of Virginia. “Of those, about one-quarter go on to require intensive-care support for critical illness. Once they are on mechanical ventilation in the ICU, it’s often a protracted stay.”

Having a hospital full of highly contagious patients leads to diminished stores of equipment intended to protect staff members who are also at risk of infection.

The University of Michigan Medical Center now requires everyone to wear a mask. Additionally, anyone caring for patients who have or are suspected of having Covid-19 must wear a gown and eye protection.

During flu season, the center uses “droplet protection” only in some rooms, and there is no universal masking requirement.

“It’s a different world,” Dr. Lauring said.

Most people have some immunity to the flu, either from vaccines or previous exposure, and nearly all health-care workers are protected by the flu shot.

“It’s not unusual to have compliance rates above 95%,” Vanderbilt’s Dr. Schaffner said, referring to vaccinations of hospital employees. “That’s everybody—doctors, nurses, dietitians, people who clean at night—everybody.”

Currently, there is no vaccine or specific treatment for Covid-19, so slowing or stopping its spread has required social distancing.

But there is one quality that might make Covid-19 less problematic than flu.

“It’s not changing and mutating at the rate the flu can do,” said Allison Weinmann, an infectious-disease physician at Henry Ford Health System in Detroit.

That could make it easier for pharmaceutical companies to develop an effective vaccine—and render Covid-19 no more remarkable than the seasonal flu.

Bravo, sir! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
They call the flu "gentle waves"...apparently the writer hasn't had a bad case. Nothing gentle about it.

The analogy is not very accurate, but then it is all Fake News. Fire them all!

Or sue them so litigation bankrupts them all!
 
Hoax victims. Coffins are full of healing thoughts and prayers.
Screenshot_20200410-091005.jpg
 
Dr. Bonsai must be correct. It's just the flu. We should have kept schools, sporting events, conventions, air travel and everything else running as normal, and just treat the sick people. Simple! We are so dumb and so duped by "the media." All of that "Fake News" from New York hospitals and Italy. Dang it! They really got me!

@herzalot You need to brush up on your reading skills since you can't seem to follow what I wrote. I try to use short words and simple sentences as much as possible, but it is clear that I over-estimate the intelligence of some of the users of this site.

Let's try some basic math:
Cost of coronavirus "aid package" = $2 trillion
Number of households in US = 130 million
Cost of "aid package" per household = $15,385

That is, of course, unless you assume you will never have to repay it. I can never follow some people's logic... money is free!!! Yay!
 
:gotnothing::gotnothing::gotnothing::gotnothing:

I'm over it.........Corona virus and the news can suck my b**ls......I'm going to do what I'm good at a stick my head in the sand and pretend this doesn't exist.....hey this sand is warm and comforting....maybe I'll stay here....no insults or attitudes to deal with....uh oh I'm getting hungry and thirsty....should I stay in the sand or go eat....no, ill stay here..its warm and comforting...
 
@herzalot You need to brush up on your reading skills since you can't seem to follow what I wrote. I try to use short words and simple sentences as much as possible, but it is clear that I over-estimate the intelligence of some of the users of this site.

Let's try some basic math:
Cost of coronavirus "aid package" = $2 trillion
Number of households in US = 130 million
Cost of "aid package" per household = $15,385

That is, of course, unless you assume you will never have to repay it. I can never follow some people's logic... money is free!!! Yay!
All true, and tragic. But...this is a once in 100 year event. It touches the entire country and beyond. Spread that $15K across 100 years, at US Treasury’s essentially zero interest rate. Then realize that the do-nothing alternative was the 2M+ dead worst-case scenario, which could have destroyed the constitutional order along with the economy.

so...would you pay $150/year to keep the constitution? Of course you would.

there are lots of things to fix, let’s try to make sure we’re all around and in a position to fix them.
 
Keep in mind projected numbers that have been released come from models that are based on actions taken and current data. 25M infections was probably excluded the CA stay at home order and thus had a higher rate of spread than we have now. Our current total of 17,000 cases only has to double 11 times to get to 35M which could take 20-30 days depending on rate of spread. And don't forget our actual case total is a lot higher than that due to limited testing. Stay at home orders and other restrictions have cut the rate of spread from doubling every 2 days to doubling every 3 days across the US in the last 2-3 weeks. California's rate is even lower, probably 3.5-4 days right now which is a huge difference. That is why we are seeing numbers far far lower than 25M. Newsom isn't crazy for quoting that number, it was just a projection based on worst case scenario.

This is a site I follow which updates daily. https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america/california. Before it's stay at home order Alabama was screwed. The model showed need for around 30,000 total hospital beds and 2,500 ICU beds compared to much smaller numbers they currently have. Once their stay at home order was put in place the model's assumptions were updated and now it shows them not exceeding the number of beds and ICU beds.

Evedog.. why u have to use real facts!
Haha.. actually thanks for ur discussion...
I appreciate scientific principles....
 
@BonsaiNut
Sweden has a total population of just over 10 million, roughly that of LA county, with a land mass greater than California.

Just by default they have geographically imposed social distancing unlike the east or west coasts of the US. This may help explain the lower numbers.
Just a thought but make sense.

And with that comparison they still have 3x the Covid19 deaths of LA County.
 
There have been many posts in this thread that declare that other things are more deadly than the current pandemic, like the flu for example. (I do not argue those data).

There have been many posts in this thread that explain the economic consequences of closing down businesses and shutting down social gatherings and interactions, including the collateral damage of joblessness, homelessness, despair and suicide - and the economic consequences of the (over-reaching) stimulus package approved by Congress and the president.

So I am just curious at this point - if we as a nation are over-reacting, what is the proper approach to Coronavirus / COVID 19 / SARS v2? What better solution has been explained or implied by those who feel we have been and are currently over-reacting?

I have been declared too stupid to understand.
 
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Same here... The U of Oregon has called off graduation this year, and I was already planning which trails to ride! :thumbsdown:

Originally, I had 3 graduations planed for June (College, High School and ....... Elementary school).
My two older daughters are concerned, my Son is negotiating a graduation gift.


Seriously, I hope to be a passive participate in both of my girls graduation ceramists (did I actually write that?)
 
All true, and tragic. But...this is a once in 100 year event. It touches the entire country and beyond. Spread that $15K across 100 years, at US Treasury’s essentially zero interest rate. Then realize that the do-nothing alternative was the 2M+ dead worst-case scenario, which could have destroyed the constitutional order along with the economy.

so...would you pay $150/year to keep the constitution? Of course you would.

there are lots of things to fix, let’s try to make sure we’re all around and in a position to fix them.

Absolutely. I raise the question because I am pretty skeptical of anything the government tells me :)

If you haven't yet, you might enjoy seeing the list of the winners and losers of the $2 trillion aid package. Interestingly, only about 5% goes directly to hospitals for emergency supplies and equipment.
 
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