Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

mike said:
Thanks for your take on the history.

There’s nothing DL about building, maintaining and using an illegal trail in a small park like Aliso. You guys act like it’s some kind of secret backcountry stash in BFE. The idea of it is audacious and a product of overt entitlement. The so-called pillars of the community set the pace of disregard for regulations, and you get what you have now: A disfunctional relationship between that user group and the management that has potential to affect many others.

I’ll interpret “uneasy truce” as Parks not having/allocating the budget and personnel to effectively prioritize illegal trails.

Blaming outsider mobs is a typical locals reaction. Everyone who’s ridden and talked about the “DL” trails is to blame for pushing the managers as far as they have been. Including those who think nothing of broadcasting info, both locals and not.
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Your horse is getting a little tall...
 
herzalot said:
It's not the poach happy locals that caused this. They've kept everything on the DL and have maintained an uneasy truce with rangers for 20 years. It's the sudden surge in riders and poach happy non-locals (who may not even know they're poaching), riding in huge groups and posting on social media that forced the hands of the Rangers and land managers. And although I have ridden a number (5?) of the hidden gems, I have only ridden them once. (Well except the one named for a pie restaurant - and not after Lizard opened).
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So it's OK for local on the down low to build and poach illegal trails? I think this may be the cause to start it all.
Seems to me that non locals from out of town won't be building illegal trails as they aren't there all the time, and will explore what they find.

Id expect those in laguna to have the highest respect for their area and not build or poach as they know the sensitivity their actions have on the land stewards.

There is trail building going on all over that ive seen and not just laguna. Most shouldn't be built as the land is not theirs. But then kids will be kids. Even if adults.....


But then I dont ride them as those trails are typically over my comfort level.
 
Danimal said:
So it's OK for local on the down low to build and poach illegal trails? I think this may be the cause to start it all.
Seems to me that non locals from out of town won't be building illegal trails as they aren't there all the time, and will explore what they find.

Id expect those in laguna to have the highest respect for their area and not build or poach as they know the sensitivity their actions have on the land stewards.

There is trail building going on all over that ive seen and not just laguna. Most shouldn't be built as the land is not theirs. But then kids will be kids. Even if adults.....


But then I dont ride them as those trails are typically over my comfort level.
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Sheesh people - I am describing the situation - not defending it, promoting it or encouraging it. All I have done is describe it.

This is emblematic of the bigger picture - we have completely lost the ability to simply describe a situation without taking up "sides" and throwing out our various levels of indignation and self righteousness. NOWHERE above did I defend the building or riding of illegal trails. I explained what happened and what is happening. PERIOD.
 
herzalot said:
Sheesh people - I am describing the situation - not defending it, promoting it or encouraging it. All I have done is describe it.

This is emblematic of the bigger picture - we have completely lost the ability to simply describe a situation without taking up "sides" and throwing out our various levels of indignation and self righteousness. NOWHERE above did I defend the building or riding of illegal trails. I explained what happened and what is happening. PERIOD.
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I agree with absolutely everything you just said...


Seriously, I agree. :thumbsup:
 
Relax people! Not every issue has a side... I do remember when I first started riding El Moro etc... U go exploring.. u ride.. u explore... Locals non locals. Not relevant...but to find the trails u had to ride there often... In the last couple of years... All the trails now have been well published on u tube... Trains going down off menu.. recording...
Discretion is forgotten...
 
Even my local floop.. whole gang details r building jumps.. parks... And then on u tube...
My little secret places r all public...
Oh well... Can't ride floop anymore anyways bc 1000s of people...
Not really fair to all the family hikers if u blast past them..
I saw an ebiker weaving in out of walking groups... Kicking up dust..shredding ... On the flat wide trail near the courthouse...
 
Danimal said:
So it's OK for local on the down low to build and poach illegal trails? I think this may be the cause to start it all.
Seems to me that non locals from out of town won't be building illegal trails as they aren't there all the time, and will explore what they find.

Id expect those in laguna to have the highest respect for their area and not build or poach as they know the sensitivity their actions have on the land stewards.

There is trail building going on all over that ive seen and not just laguna. Most shouldn't be built as the land is not theirs. But then kids will be kids. Even if adults.....


But then I dont ride them as those trails are typically over my comfort level.
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Well stated, thanks.


Brett, the messenger is easy pickings, I know.
 
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herzalot said:
It's not the poach happy locals that caused this. They've kept everything on the DL and have maintained an uneasy truce with rangers for 20 years. It's the sudden surge in riders and poach happy non-locals (who may not even know they're poaching), riding in huge groups and posting on social media that forced the hands of the Rangers and land managers. And although I have ridden a number (5?) of the hidden gems, I have only ridden them once. (Well except the one named for a pie restaurant - and not after Lizard opened).
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Sorry, everyone who build maintains or rides unauthorized trails shares blame. There was never any truce with the rangers that riders would keep those trails a secret , only ride them in small groups at dusk, or only build so many of them; in exchange for nonenforcement for locals. They were never ok with it. Sure back in the day it wasn’t as big of a problem as now, and with their limited funding and staffing they perhaps didn’t prioritize it; with the recent uptick (especially after warning in 2018 bike banning was on the table )now they are
 
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mike said:
Thanks for your take on the history.

There’s nothing DL about building, maintaining and using an illegal trail in a small park like Aliso. You guys act like it’s some kind of secret backcountry stash in BFE. The idea of it is audacious and a product of overt entitlement. The so-called pillars of the community set the pace of disregard for regulations, and you get what you have now: A disfunctional relationship between that user group and the management that has potential to affect many others.

I’ll interpret “uneasy truce” as Parks not having/allocating the budget and personnel to effectively prioritize illegal trails.

Blaming outsider mobs is a typical locals reaction. Everyone who’s ridden and talked about the “DL” trails is to blame for pushing the managers as far as they have been. Including those who think nothing of broadcasting info, both locals and not.
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Thanks Mike. I read this and decided it captured my sentiments better than what I was writing.

the “secret” trails have never been secret. They’ve always been a problem. And blaming new riders for doing what the old riders want to keep right on doing, but with ebikes, is some seriously entitled BS. Then again, I can’t point to any sector of society right now that isn’t overflowing with entitlement issues.

edit: yo comprendo senor Herz. No estoy hablando de ti.

I’m amazed that OC Parks still has any interest in keeping us around.
 
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Danimal said:
So it's OK for local on the down low to build and poach illegal trails? I think this may be the cause to start it all.
Seems to me that non locals from out of town won't be building illegal trails as they aren't there all the time, and will explore what they find.

Id expect those in laguna to have the highest respect for their area and not build or poach as they know the sensitivity their actions have on the land stewards.

There is trail building going on all over that ive seen and not just laguna. Most shouldn't be built as the land is not theirs. But then kids will be kids. Even if adults.....


But then I dont ride them as those trails are typically over my comfort level.
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How many Laguna “locals” actually have ties to the area? How many bike industry types would have to stick around for work or family after OCParks drops the hammer?

the Laguna “locals” have resources and options that most of us can only dream of. Given the chance, they’ll blow the place up and move to Colorado (or back to Switzerland).
 
I’m going to slightly divert this topic and get on my soapbox to say please get involved with your community and with issues you care about. If its about mtb that’s great, if its about something else (e.g. Racewalking) then get engaged with that.

Part of what’s happening is that people want the luxury of participating in mtb but they don’t want to actually invest in it. This isn’t unique to mountain biking, it’s a problem in many areas of life. That said, since this site is about mtb, I’m keeping it on that. If you’re someone that wants more trails, then work on supporting that and support the ones you do already have. If you’re someone that is fine with what trails we have then work on sustaining what we have, educating others and correcting those that aren’t abiding by the rules.

If more people were less selfish and more engaged in the health of the sport then we would be in a better place.

Btw, for those that didn’t know, Racewalking is a real thing.:gag:
 
konakc said:
Relax people! Not every issue has a side... I do remember when I first started riding El Moro etc... U go exploring.. u ride.. u explore... Locals non locals. Not relevant...but to find the trails u had to ride there often... In the last couple of years... All the trails now have been well published on u tube... Trains going down off menu.. recording...
Discretion is forgotten...
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Whippersnappers, listen up: In the old days we had to print our Strava tracks on paper and sell them in stores.

Telonics has never been an approved trail, but it’s been in printed guidebooks since cantilever brakes.

The whole Voldemort thing about trail names is silly, by the way...if it’s in at least two guidebooks currently for sale on Amazon, it’s not a skull-and-bones Illuminati secret.
 
tick said:
How many Laguna “locals” actually have ties to the area? How many bike industry types would have to stick around for work or family after OCParks drops the hammer?

the Laguna “locals” have resources and options that most of us can only dream of. Given the chance, they’ll blow the place up and move to Colorado (or back to Switzerland).
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Umm, I can’t leave easily...
 
kdiff said:
...If you’re someone that wants more trails, then work on supporting that and support the ones you do already have. If you’re someone that is fine with what trails we have then work on sustaining what we have, educating others and correcting those that aren’t abiding by the rules.

If more people were less selfish and more engaged in the health of the sport then we would be in a better place.
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This has proven to be a lot easier said than done for me. I loved working on trails with @kioti - who had authorization and know-how to do amazing work. I put in many days of sweat equity knowing that the work we were doing was going to increase the enjoyment of the trails for all riders and was maintainable. But then I saw the work that other authorized entities were doing and literally couldn't get myself to put a shovel into the soil to do what they saw was the right thing to do on that particular trail. It's hard to participate when you disagree with the overall trail philosophy of those in charge, so I shifted my approach to influencing those who make decisions higher up the food chain. And we certainly can't go free-lancing our trail work, lest we get tagged for vandalism. That makes sense, because other people's vision of what features should be built (let's say BMX or dirt jump features on legal trails or sketchy wooden features) could be extremely dangerous. Plus - we should only do tread work when the dirt is wet.

As far as trail advocacy goes (i.e. dollar support for organizations who "support" trails), again you get into trail philosophy and the e-bike discussion. Do I support the destruction of challenging trails in favor of low-gradient "sustainable" trails that are family friendly? Do I support groups who are funded by e-bike advocates? IMBA? SHARE?

I agree on educating others and correcting those who aren't abiding by the rules, but I feel really weird being a self-appointed trail marshal, confronting large groups about the impact of their actions. I suppose I should do so anyway, despite my dislike of confrontation of strangers.

I am anxious to get back out there and help sustain and maintain trails, and I will look for opportunities to do so.
 
herzalot said:
This has proven to be a lot easier said than done for me. I loved working on trails with @kioti - who had authorization and know-how to do amazing work. I put in many days of sweat equity knowing that the work we were doing was going to increase the enjoyment of the trails for all riders and was maintainable. But then I saw the work that other authorized entities were doing and literally couldn't get myself to put a shovel into the soil to do what they saw was the right thing to do on that particular trail. It's hard to participate when you disagree with the overall trail philosophy of those in charge, so I shifted my approach to influencing those who make decisions higher up the food chain. And we certainly can't go free-lancing our trail work, lest we get tagged for vandalism. That makes sense, because other people's vision of what features should be built (let's say BMX or dirt jump features on legal trails or sketchy wooden features) could be extremely dangerous. Plus - we should only do tread work when the dirt is wet.
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Your concerns and frustrations are completely valid. I struggle with the same things. If I strongly oppose a piece of work then I won’t do it. That said, trail work isn’t the only way to make progress. I do that because I’ve found it a good way for me to learn. One can contribute by going to city council meetings & other political routes, asking bike shops to weigh in on trails, supporting businesses that are bike friendly, and so on. One person isn’t going to be the make/break, its going to take a major part of the community. Maybe I’m on the wrong forum because most you probably already care, it’s the people that don’t that need to be addressed, however, are many on here regularly participating in some way?

herzalot said:
As far as trail advocacy goes (i.e. dollar support for organizations who "support" trails), again you get into trail philosophy and the e-bike discussion. Do I support the destruction of challenging trails in favor of low-gradient "sustainable" trails that are family friendly? Do I support groups who are funded by e-bike advocates? IMBA? SHARE?
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Also a conundrum for me which is why I contribute with time, I can directly control that.

herzalot said:
I agree on educating others and correcting those who aren't abiding by the rules, but I feel really weird being a self-appointed trail marshal, confronting large groups about the impact of their actions. I suppose I should do so anyway, despite my dislike of confrontation of strangers.
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This is probably blasphemy to a lot of people but you can always call the rangers and let them deal with it. That’s their job, they won’t complain.

herzalot said:
This has proven to be a lot easier said than done for me. I loved working on trails with @kioti - who had authorization and know-how to do amazing work. I put in many days of sweat equity knowing that the work we were doing was going to increase the enjoyment of the trails for all riders and was maintainable.
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I know you’ve been here a lot longer than me and I appreciate that you have contributed. If you’re interested in doing trail work and open to areas outside of Laguna then I’m sure we can find you and others opportunities that won’t be so conflicting, especially once we get some more moisture.
 
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kdiff said:
You’re concerns and frustrations are completely valid. I struggle with the same things. If I strongly oppose a piece of work then I won’t do it. That said, trail work isn’t the only way to make progress. I do that because I’ve found it a good way for me to learn. One can contribute by going to city council meetings & other political routes, asking bike shops to weigh in on trails, supporting businesses that are bike friendly, and so on. One person isn’t going to be the make/break, its going to take a major part of the community. Maybe I’m on the wrong forum because most you probably already care, it’s the people that don’t that need to be addressed, however, are many on here regularly participating in some way?



Also a conundrum for me which is why I contribute with time, I can directly control that.



This is probably blasphemy to a lot of people but you can always call the rangers and let them deal with it. That’s their job, they won’t complain.



I know you’ve been here a lot longer than me and I appreciate that you have contributed. If you’re interested in doing trail work and open to areas outside of Laguna then I’m sure we can find you and others opportunities that won’t be so conflicting, especially once we get some more moisture.
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The main trail advocacy groups are now shills for e-bike salesmen. So I’m not seeing a way out through them.

I’m just generally not hopeful that our society has the resources and patience to do anything difficult right now.
 
herzalot said:
...I have ridden a number (5?) of the hidden gems, I have only ridden them once. (Well except the one named for a pie restaurant - and not after Lizard opened).
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herzalot said:
I agree on educating others and correcting those who aren't abiding by the rules...
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Policing oneself is all that's required.

Not blaming you particularly, Chris, I know your heart is in the right place. But that's a perfect example of the entitlement in question.

Fight Club rules are apparently out the window. People post freely about illegal trails – even in this well-meaning thread. Some irony there, no?


@kdiff: Thanks for your excellent input.
 
mike said:
Policing oneself is all that's required.

Not blaming you particularly, Chris, I know your heart is in the right place. But that's a perfect example of the entitlement in question.

Fight Club rules are apparently out the window. People post freely about illegal trails – even in this well-meaning thread. Some irony there, no?


@kdiff: Thanks for your excellent input.
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Fight Club rules are part of the problem not the solution. They are a) hypocritical, and b) unenforceable. Name names, admit what everyone sees is real. And deal with it. Pretending you’re OK because you don’t spell out the words Marie Callender’s is dopey. It’s not like the rangers don’t Strava.

Trail issues seem small these days. But they share the same root as the big issues.
 
bvader said:
I rode Stair Steps on a HT today...
(sans waterfall... no pads)
Take That!!!
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Oh yeah? Well I walked up Valido Trail with my daughter and my dog today!!!! No pads! Wait - is that still Aliso?

Evidently it is - I see it under the "difficult" trails. Extreme south end of the map:
Aliso Map Photo.jpg



And I would not want to ride the main part of Stair Steps on a hard tail. Bouncy!
 
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kdiff said:
educating others and correcting those that aren’t abiding by the rules.
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Yeah, this goes over really well. How to do I know....I educate every ebiker I see in OC Parks. You know how this goes? "Mind your own F*cking business" or "You Don't Know Anything About Me". Does that bother me....nope, cause the offender is usually the one getting bent outta shape when called on their indiscretion. Then again, they are so self centered and entitled that unless they start getting hit in the wallet, they will continue to break the rules.



I don't support SHARE....yes, there are lots of great people associated with it. I know many of them. However they are in support of ebikes because it puts more bikes on the trails.

I don't suppport IMBA because they are no longer independent and non political. Too many donors and lobbyists have gotten them to side on the ebike bandwagon.


But that is why we are all allowed to have opinions.

Don't get me wrong....today's users need a strong shot of reality. Newer users need to to taught the rules. We all used to have older riders that showed us the way when we first started riding. All the younger riders today have are yutube showing them how to be asshats on the trails.

Maybe someday they'll learn....hopefully before we all get kicked out.
 
herzalot said:
Not naming the names is to decrease the trail's searchable presence on social media. That is all.
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I get it, but the cat is kinda out of the bag, the train has left the station, etc. time to be real. Playing by the fight club rules implies that we are, or at least wish we were, part of the club/one of the cool kids.

mtnbikej said:
However they are in support of ebikes because it puts more bikes on the trails.
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Hens volunteering on behalf of the fox.
 
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