There's more to leading a ride than leading the ride

Hehe, Gary, spoken like a true weekday warrior! You know I'm a soloist at heart. Somehow I have more friends in the Denver area than even in SoCal. Loads of them moved here ~20 years ago, plus some new ones. Constant social engagement is def not my comfort zone...it'll be over soon!

Steve, I also rate IMTBers at the top of the scale. We get it! We're good, eh? :cool::)
 
Check this leader action:

I sprout coldies after the ride. Leader declares "I'm not a beer person." Takes the coldie. Tailgating. Disbanding after the sesh, I harvest the empties. Leader hands me back 11.5 ounces of beer without a word. That don't seem like leading to me. :laugh:o_O:thumbsdown::Roflmao OTOH, I had a beer to sweep :cool::thumbsup:
 
mike said:
Ho, man, I had to think of this thread on Sunday...group dynamics never cease to entertain! :geek:

I was the new member of a group of semi-skilled riders led by a more experienced/skilled/fit rider – the ride "leader." I just wanted to hang with my friend who invited me, ready and equipped for social pace. I happily swept as we went up and down terrain. My friend was the slowest of the group, so it was easy to hang back with her and have fun.

Near the apex of the ride, I shuffled ahead of the group for some cardio. Said ride leader shows up, chat ensues. A bit of tension seemed palpable; I stay complimentary and submissive. Lastly I ask point blank "do you mind if I go first?" Leader's head swivels away from mine, and she gets on her bike and starts taking off as the others roll up. Did that just happen??? I popped off the trail and passed her, not seeing them at the bottom for a minute or more.

I am baffled as F that I continue to encounter experienced riders who do not get how it works. If someone is on your ass, up or down, in your group or not, they get the option to pass. Wait for the group at any trail forks. Everyone going as fast as they want. That's not even leader etiquette, just what every rider does or should do.

As for leaders, leave the ego at the car, and take care of your group. Don't blast through trail forks ahead of your noob group. Consider sweeping. Sweep. Move the order around so everybody is mixing it up and not getting bored. Be okay not riding as fast as you might like. Put your focus on the least strong member(s). In essence, use common sense and logic. :whistling:;)

Was that a rant? :cautious::unsure:
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That group leader might be operating on the principle that everyone "in the group" stays between the leader and the sweep, and she was the leader. So your two theories were destined for conflict. And tension challenges communication flow, especially (perhaps) with a new, unknown person.

Same thing happens in my "group" neighborhood. Some people like trees and some don't. I bought here for the trees, especially the liquid ambers and their Fall colors. Others just see "messy" leaves on the ground. Those Others won today, because tree trimmers came through and (as instructed by the Board) cut the hell out of our liquid amber, smack dab in the middle of Fall color season. Right.

My girlfriend might love these trees even more than I do and it broke her heart, because there's a really pretty one outside our front window and it's instantly about 90% gone. Not the best start to the Thanksgiving season for the neighborhood's most enthusiastic holiday decorator. :bang::confused::poop:
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Just curious...these liquid ambers are street trees, or actually on your property?

Street/parkway trees belong to the city and not the property owner.
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We live in a townhome and the trees are in the front yards. Anything outside our dwellings is considered Common Area, hence the "group" situation. One person's heaven is their next door neighbor's hell, and it gets a little Stepfordesqe from time to time.

Oakridge is looking pretty good right now. ;)
 
kioti said:
That group leader might be operating on the principle that everyone "in the group" stays between the leader and the sweep, and she was the leader. So your two theories were destined for conflict. And tension challenges communication flow, especially (perhaps) with a new, unknown person.

Same thing happens in my "group" neighborhood. Some people like trees and some don't. I bought here for the trees, especially the liquid ambers and their Fall colors. Others just see "messy" leaves on the ground. Those Others won today, because tree trimmers came through and (as instructed by the Board) cut the hell out of our liquid amber, smack dab in the middle of Fall color season. Right.

My girlfriend might love these trees even more than I do and it broke her heart, because there's a really pretty one outside our front window and it's instantly about 90% gone. Not the best start to the Thanksgiving season for the neighborhood's most enthusiastic holiday decorator. :bang::confused::poop:
Click to expand...

Sounds like we have the same tree trimmers and board members! And on top of the trees, we have a little rose bush right outside our front door. It's never managed to grow more than a foot tall before it's chopped to ground level. It kills my wife every time they do it... Even after talking to the landscapers and getting assurances that they'd leave it alone.

Maybe our board members are related to mike's ride leader. :p
 
mtnbikej said:
Or the people who show up to group rides then put both ear buds in and ignore the group. o_O
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Funny how you mention this. I stopped riding with a guy because he would always plug in and zone out. What's the point of riding with someone else?

As far as leading a ride goes... I get nervous when people are behind me so I always like to bring up the rear. That's what I tell myself at least. Plus our last group ride wasn't I picking white sage for everyone? I was the perfect team player!

Salvia_apiana-2.jpg


Native Americans started the tradition of using Sacred Sage to ward off evil spirits and negative energies, and white sage has been used in ceremonies to seek blessings of health and prosperity, banish spirits, encourage protection.
 
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Faust29 said:
Sounds like we have the same tree trimmers and board members! And on top of the trees, we have a little rose bush right outside our front door. It's never managed to grow more than a foot tall before it's chopped to ground level. It kills my wife every time they do it... Even after talking to the landscapers and getting assurances that they'd leave it alone.

Maybe our board members are related to mike's ride leader. :p
Click to expand...

@Faust29, thanks for steering this thing back on topic (you, too, @BonsaiNut).

I don't lead group rides, but I lead trail work events. After doing hundreds of hours on my own or with a few others, I led a big event where I couldn't supervise everything because it was taking place over too big an area. This was after the mudslides of late 2009/early 2010. @CalEpic and I had walked the Luge the day the rain stopped, and he can attest to the damage it suffered.

That day of "leading" was a growth opportunity for me, because I let 30+ riders decide where they wanted to work and what they wanted to do. A small group and I would discuss a problem area for a few minutes; then I'd move up the trail to the next problem and a new group. Later, I might come by and ask, "If a rider hits this jump, where are they likely to land?" Which might lead to an adjustment or two, or maybe not. ;)

We opened 7 miles of trail that day that had been nearly impassable beforehand. Within 10 days of the rain stopping, we had the STT open all the way from the Modjeska gate to Old Camp, and 'top to bottom' Luge completely repaired and rideable.

So I guess a leadership style I like is: provide an opportunity, define the goal, try to ensure safety, carry my own weight and see what happens.

Here's Craig @CalEpic checking the Luge.
DSCN3330.jpg


No worries.. :whistling:
DSCN3328.jpg


The trail was.. where?
DSCN3333.jpg


And on the STT..
DSCN3453.jpg


bingo!
DSCN3485.jpg
 
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BonsaiNut said:
Funny how you mention this. I stopped riding with a guy because he would always plug in and zone out. What's the point of riding with someone else?

As far as leading a ride goes... I get nervous when people are behind me so I always like to bring up the rear. That's what I tell myself at least. Plus our last group ride wasn't I picking white sage for everyone? I was the perfect team player!

View attachment 33453

Native Americans started the tradition of using Sacred Sage to ward off evil spirits and negative energies, and white sage has been used in ceremonies to seek blessings of health and prosperity, banish spirits, encourage protection.
Click to expand...

I've been known to wave some weeds around to ward off the cooties.
 
mike said:
Check this leader action:

I sprout coldies after the ride. Leader declares "I'm not a beer person." Takes the coldie. Tailgating. Disbanding after the sesh, I harvest the empties. Leader hands me back 11.5 ounces of beer without a word. That don't seem like leading to me. :laugh:o_O:thumbsdown::Roflmao OTOH, I had a beer to sweep :cool::thumbsup:
Click to expand...

That's just a straight up party foul. We used to call those funnel beers.
 
kioti said:
@CalEpic and I had walked the Luge the day the rain stopped, and he can attest to the damage it suffered.
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I think that was the day I "rode" Joplin. Entire sections were gone. One part of the trail was so washed out that it had a gully in the middle so deep I couldn't even HAB it. My bike tires were in the bottom of the gulley and my handlebars were scraping the sides of the trail at ground level so I couldn't push the bike through.

I remember the work you did on the Luge. Even AFTER the work there were a couple of "up and over" sections that were a little sketchier than I was used to :) The penalty for failure was substantial. I was glad when the trail was finally beaten back into submission.
 
taking a coldie and giving it back almost full?
***
White sage in your camel pak takes some of the stinkyness away...
***
Pacifico in a can...very versatile.. yum...
 
BonsaiNut said:
I remember the work you did on the Luge. Even AFTER the work there were a couple of "up and over" sections that were a little sketchier than I was used to :) The penalty for failure was substantial. I was glad when the trail was finally beaten back into submission.
Click to expand...

My biggest worry after the fire and continuing through the mud slide period was the lack of brush to catch a rider if they went off the side. That persisted for a number of years but is better now, though there are still a couple spots near the top where it's steep rock and I doubt anyone could stop.
 
mike said:
Check this leader action:

I sprout coldies after the ride. Leader declares "I'm not a beer person." Takes the coldie. Tailgating. Disbanding after the sesh, I harvest the empties. Leader hands me back 11.5 ounces of beer without a word. That don't seem like leading to me. :laugh:o_O:thumbsdown::Roflmao OTOH, I had a beer to sweep :cool::thumbsup:
Click to expand...

You were just with the wrong group (for you).
It happens to all of us at one point or another.

What do are describing is very common with road clubs.
Some clubs are very rigid while other let the riders adjust the rules on the fly.
It's no big deal. Find another group with a different vibe.
 
kioti said:
@Faust29, thanks for steering this thing back on topic (you, too, @BonsaiNut).

I don't lead group rides, but I lead trail work events. After doing hundreds of hours on my own or with a few others, I led a big event where I couldn't supervise everything because it was taking place over too big an area. This was after the mudslides of late 2009/early 2010. @CalEpic and I had walked the Luge the day the rain stopped, and he can attest to the damage it suffered.

That day of "leading" was a growth opportunity for me, because I let 30+ riders decide where they wanted to work and what they wanted to do. A small group and I would discuss a problem area for a few minutes; then I'd move up the trail to the next problem and a new group. Later, I might come by and ask, "If a rider hits this jump, where are they likely to land?" Which might lead to an adjustment or two, or maybe not. ;)

We opened 7 miles of trail that day that had been nearly impassable beforehand. Within 10 days of the rain stopping, we had the STT open all the way from the Modjeska gate to Old Camp, and 'top to bottom' Luge completely repaired and rideable.

So I guess a leadership style I like is: provide an opportunity, define the goal, try to ensure safety, carry my own weight and see what happens.

Here's Craig @CalEpic checking the Luge.
View attachment 33456

No worries.. :whistling:
View attachment 33457

The trail was.. where?
View attachment 33459

And on the STT..
View attachment 33460

bingo!
View attachment 33461
Click to expand...


To me, in these pics the slides still look considerably wet and unstable. Did you not entertain the thought that you could be caught in another new slide, or even existing slide somewhere along the trail?
 
kioti said:
Some people like trees and some don't. I bought here for the trees, especially the liquid ambers and their Fall colors. Others just see "messy" leaves on the ground. Those Others won today, because tree trimmers came through and (as instructed by the Board) cut the hell out of our liquid amber, smack dab in the middle of Fall color season.
Click to expand...

(1) That's why keeping bonsai is cool. An American sweet gum for your viewing pleasure:

593ca182cb5f027c5dae98a3a110f818--bonsai-plants-bonsai-art.jpg


(2) I am a member of the Nellie Gail Ranch landscaping committee. This year we had to remove 30 trees (due to death, disease, etc). We planted 500. The "man" can't keep you down if you're the man :)

- G
 
hill^billy said:
To me, in these pics the slides still look considerably wet and unstable. Did you not entertain the thought that you could be caught in another new slide, or even existing slide somewhere along the trail?
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Yeah, it was a mess. The first shots were taken the day the rain stopped and Craig and I understood the risk and crossed the slides one at a time, with the other person watching from a safe spot. Within 3 or 4 days, things were drying out considerably.

I have decades of mountaineering experience and reassessed the trail/slope conditions daily. Each day it got better, and by day 10 I felt it was safe and stable enough to work the whole trail. Volunteers were apprised of the situation and cautioned to be aware of possible slides or trail failure, but the most critical areas were handled before the big volunteer day with small groups under my direct supervision.
 
BonsaiNut said:
(1) That's why keeping bonsai is cool. An American sweet gum for your viewing pleasure:

View attachment 33475

(2) I am a member of the Nellie Gail Ranch landscaping committee. This year we had to remove 30 trees (due to death, disease, etc). We planted 500. The "man" can't keep you down if you're the man :)

- G
Click to expand...
Thank you! That tree is quite pleasurable to the eye, but neighbors and gardeners alike would be quite concerned about that leaf on the ground.
 
Danimal said:
The Gardener's would just blow it off into the street anyway for cars to grind to dust.
They don't actually clean just re-distribute.
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There seems to be some confusion about what constitutes acceptable landscaping. Many neighbors are profoundly abhorrent of leaves and seed pods. One wonders why they bought homes with trees in the front yards?

The gardeners are committed to keeping the ground as clean as an operating table. They march down the streets with leaf blowers like horsemen of the apocalypse, leaves and debris churning the air before them like the flailed souls of sinners. The furious sound of their blower's motors is only matched by the amount of dirt left on residents' cars.

My girlfriend and I have asked that they not disturb the fiery orange, red, yellow and purple carpet of leaves lying below our liquid amber. Neighborhood children run and play through the leaves as parents look on aghast.
 
kioti said:
There seems to be some confusion about what constitutes acceptable landscaping. Many neighbors are profoundly abhorrent of leaves and seed pods. One wonders why they bought homes with trees in the front yards?

The gardeners are committed to keeping the ground as clean as an operating table. They march down the streets with leaf blowers like horsemen of the apocalypse, leaves and debris churning the air before them like the flailed souls of sinners. The furious sound of their blower's motors is only matched by the amount of dirt left on residents' cars.

My girlfriend and I have asked that they not disturb the fiery orange, red, yellow and purple carpet of leaves lying below our liquid amber. Neighborhood children run and play through the leaves as parents look on aghast.
Click to expand...

We do have the same landscapers, neighbors and board members!

Coming from rural east coast living, the speed at which they clean up every fallen twig around here has always amazed me.
 
kioti said:
There seems to be some confusion about what constitutes acceptable landscaping. Many neighbors are profoundly abhorrent of leaves and seed pods. One wonders why they bought homes with trees in the front yards?

The gardeners are committed to keeping the ground as clean as an operating table. They march down the streets with leaf blowers like horsemen of the apocalypse, leaves and debris churning the air before them like the flailed souls of sinners. The furious sound of their blower's motors is only matched by the amount of dirt left on residents' cars.

My girlfriend and I have asked that they not disturb the fiery orange, red, yellow and purple carpet of leaves lying below our liquid amber. Neighborhood children run and play through the leaves as parents look on aghast.
Click to expand...
Leaf blowers should be banned. The dust they generate is very bad for life on almost all fronts. WTF is so hard to understand?
 
HBkites said:
You were just with the wrong group (for you).
It happens to all of us at one point or another.

What do are describing is very common with road clubs.
Some clubs are very rigid while other let the riders adjust the rules on the fly.
It's no big deal. Find another group with a different vibe.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the practical words, Sharone. I would not have been with that group if not for wanting to ride with my friend whom I haven't seen for 20 years. I take it more in stride than my ranting might suggest.

I was invited to join the group (not by my friend), or some variation of it, for a ride today. Uh, dance card full, sorry! :sneaky::geek:
 
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