Extreme heat/hydro brakes

herzalot said:
People talk about on/off feel and no modulation with XTs or XTRs. I don't get it. I have absolutely no issue feathering the brakes with precision and feel. They never feel grabby to me. On the contrary, the Guides that I have tried just feel mushy and weak. I guess that's the modulation people are talking about.

To each his own.

But I am right, of course. :whistling:
Click to expand...

Riders come into the shop all the time with their brakes set up overly firm. A suggestion to loosen things up a bit is invariably dismissed with "Nope. That's the way I like it"
With a Shimano brake set up firm like that you're not getting enough master cylinder action to get down in the lever travel where the modulation hides.
I like to run my levers/contact close to the bar-and I get plenty of modulated braking from my JO2A equipped M8000 brakes.
Works for my 785s too.
XT has it all, good price, good performance, easy bleed and set up

Buy whatever you want.
 
herzalot said:
People talk about on/off feel and no modulation with XTs or XTRs. I don't get it. I have absolutely no issue feathering the brakes with precision and feel. They never feel grabby to me. On the contrary, the Guides that I have tried just feel mushy and weak. I guess that's the modulation people are talking about.

To each his own.

But I am right, of course. :whistling:
Click to expand...
I agree but a better way to describe it is that all brakes have a zone in the lever travel where feathering is possible. The on/off described brakes have a smaller zone. XT/XTR does fit into this category but the zone is not nearly as small as it is on the Magura Marta SL brakes I used to ride.

It's my understanding that lever travel on Hope brakes is almost all a feathering zone. I am not sure that this wouldn't drive me crazy because it sounds sensitive. I guess the incredible reliability of them makes up for that.
 
45acpguy said:
Supposedly, the issue with “sticky” plungers has been rectified.
Click to expand...
I've gone through quite a few models of Avid and SRAM brakes. They work great....until they don't. Random loss of pressure, sticking calipers, noisy rotors, you name it. Every year they claim they've fixed whatever the prior year issue was. The brakes get hyped up, early purchasers love them, then the stories of issues start coming out. Thanks, but I'll stick with my shimano brakes that work well enough, seldom have issues, and are dead easy to maintain.
 
Yeah, I am in the "hate XTR feel" camp. I liked the SLX feel though. I think I will stick with Magura if I am buying my own in the future. But if a new bike has a good set of what ever I will run them unless they disappoint. My Enduro is all entry level Sram components including Guides and have been great. Granted, I am only slowing down a 140 pound body, and I really do need better pads, but the Guides work great for how I ride that bike.
 
evdog said:
I've gone through quite a few models of Avid and SRAM brakes. They work great....until they don't. Random loss of pressure, sticking calipers, noisy rotors, you name it. Every year they claim they've fixed whatever the prior year issue was. The brakes get hyped up, early purchasers love them, then the stories of issues start coming out. Thanks, but I'll stick with my shimano brakes that work well enough, seldom have issues, and are dead easy to maintain.
Click to expand...

This^

This has been going on for years. The brake design is pretty much the same as always but SRAM puts a good spin and some fancy lipstick on the pig and sells it as a "new" brake.
I cannot tell you how many SRAM brakes I have rebuilt and warranteed over the years but I can tell you it is many times over the amount of any other kind of brake.
Take a good look next time you are bleeding them. See any black specks? Those are pieces of your o-rings being dissolved by DOT fluid and torn off by expanding plastic plunger and pistons.

Shimano/Magura/TRP-Tektro are all very good options IMHO.

Also, do not expect XT-level performance from an entry level brake from any manufacturer. Just not the same...
 
herzalot said:
People talk about on/off feel and no modulation with XTs or XTRs. I don't get it. I have absolutely no issue feathering the brakes with precision and feel. They never feel grabby to me. On the contrary, the Guides that I have tried just feel mushy and weak. I guess that's the modulation people are talking about.

To each his own.

But I am right, of course. :whistling:
Click to expand...
rossage said:
Riders come into the shop all the time with their brakes set up overly firm. A suggestion to loosen things up a bit is invariably dismissed with "Nope. That's the way I like it"
With a Shimano brake set up firm like that you're not getting enough master cylinder action to get down in the lever travel where the modulation hides.
I like to run my levers/contact close to the bar-and I get plenty of modulated braking from my JO2A equipped M8000 brakes.
Works for my 785s too.
XT has it all, good price, good performance, easy bleed and set up

Buy whatever you want.
Click to expand...
herzalot said:
I like my contact point close to my grips also. One finger, no stretching. Plenty of modulation.
Click to expand...

Question:
What exactly are you guys saying in regards to XT Levers "Close to the Bars?"
Are you saying you have set up the lever pull to where the beginning of the pull there is nothing until closer to the grip? I may be one of those guys that has my brakes set up "overly firm". I pull my brake and there is maybe 3/4" and the brake is all on. But I have found that I can regulate after that 3/4" any variance of stopping power for the situation. So I'm trying to figure out what advantage I would have in having to pull the lever further...
 
Mikie said:
Question:
What exactly are you guys saying in regards to XT Levers "Close to the Bars?"
Are you saying you have set up the lever pull to where the beginning of the pull there is nothing until closer to the grip? I may be one of those guys that has my brakes set up "overly firm". I pull my brake and there is maybe 3/4" and the brake is all on. But I have found that I can regulate after that 3/4" any variance of stopping power for the situation. So I'm trying to figure out what advantage I would have in having to pull the lever further...
Click to expand...

The easy answer is to use the Reach-adjust dial on the lever to bring in the lever. The pad contact screw does nothing noticeable for me...
That said, you may find that this gives you a bit of "dead stroke" before pad contact. This can be mitigated by "advancing the pads", aka pumping your brakes without a rotor or block to allow the pistons to operate a little further out.
I feather my lever with the first joint(from the tip) of my index finger of each hand. Once the brake is actually needed, a slight roll of the finger and the lever nestles into the crook of the second joint and I am free to enjoy modulated bliss with minimal hand fatigue.

Man, all this talk about joints got me thinking....wake and bake with some Costa Rican coffee and Topanga OG
 
rossage said:
The easy answer is to use the Reach-adjust dial on the lever to bring in the lever. The pad contact screw does nothing noticeable for me...
That said, you may find that this gives you a bit of "dead stroke" before pad contact. This can be mitigated by "advancing the pads", aka pumping your brakes without a rotor or block to allow the pistons to operate a little further out.
I feather my lever with the first joint(from the tip) of my index finger of each hand. Once the brake is actually needed, a slight roll of the finger and the lever nestles into the crook of the second joint and I am free to enjoy modulated bliss with minimal hand fatigue.

Man, all this talk about joints got me thinking....wake and bake with some Costa Rican coffee and Topanga OG
Click to expand...
That was a good explanation less the hooter factor. Thanks!
 
Here's a few pics for the aerospace crowd...
IMG_20180710_075813.jpg
IMG_20180710_075755.jpg
IMG_20180710_075741.jpg
IMG_20180710_075748.jpg
 
45acpguy said:
So... just received a call from the service dept at my LBS. SRAM is replacing my Level TL’s with thier most recent production components. Supposedly, the issue with “sticky” plungers has been rectified. My LBS has made this issue a priority and placed a rush order with SRAM, so my parts should be here in 2-3 days and the shop will install them that same day.
Click to expand...

And... This is why the shop is as important as the bike for some of us. They can get the warranty stuff through quickly and usually with a lot less fuss. :thumbsup:
 
Mikie said:
Question:
What exactly are you guys saying in regards to XT Levers "Close to the Bars?"
Are you saying you have set up the lever pull to where the beginning of the pull there is nothing until closer to the grip? I may be one of those guys that has my brakes set up "overly firm". I pull my brake and there is maybe 3/4" and the brake is all on. But I have found that I can regulate after that 3/4" any variance of stopping power for the situation. So I'm trying to figure out what advantage I would have in having to pull the lever further...
Click to expand...
It's all about comfort. I like mine in the middle of the adjustment settings. If you like to have your levels set out, that's fine, too.
 
I personally do not give any credit to anyone who blames the DOT fluid. I can rely on my motorcycle hauling me down from 180 MPH to 30 MPH for a corner lap after lap after lap in all weather conditions with minimal maintenance (pads and fluid change). The DOT fluid is not a problem. The problem is Sram trying to have a good design for minimal cost. I bet if they spent $20 more to make the design more robust, all problems would disappear, but then no one would be will to pay the extra cost. So the compromise means random failures. Catch-22

I also like my pads to engage early in the travel. I don't like having the lever near the bars.
 
Sidewalk said:
I personally do not give any credit to anyone who blames the DOT fluid. I can rely on my motorcycle hauling me down from 180 MPH to 30 MPH for a corner lap after lap after lap in all weather conditions with minimal maintenance (pads and fluid change). The DOT fluid is not a problem. The problem is Sram trying to have a good design for minimal cost. I bet if they spent $20 more to make the design more robust, all problems would disappear, but then no one would be will to pay the extra cost. So the compromise means random failures. Catch-22

I also like my pads to engage early in the travel. I don't like having the lever near the bars.
Click to expand...
Agreed. I don't think the DOT fluid is the culprit for the OP brake issue. I just don't like DOT Fluid period and simply prefer Mineral Oil. :-)
 
SnakeCharmer said:
Ross, that was not entirely accurate. You needed to be wearing a glove for your example so that we could see truly how the finger is positioned on the lever. Your barehanded example clearly shows too much lever under your finger. :p
Click to expand...
You are lucky he used his pointing finger. I was surprised he didn't use his middle finger for me... ;):whistling:
We bof have a history of using our middle fingers...:laugh:
 
Sidewalk said:
I personally do not give any credit to anyone who blames the DOT fluid. I can rely on my motorcycle hauling me down from 180 MPH to 30 MPH for a corner lap after lap after lap in all weather conditions with minimal maintenance (pads and fluid change). The DOT fluid is not a problem. The problem is Sram trying to have a good design for minimal cost. I bet if they spent $20 more to make the design more robust, all problems would disappear, but then no one would be will to pay the extra cost. So the compromise means random failures. Catch-22

I also like my pads to engage early in the travel. I don't like having the lever near the bars.
Click to expand...

I hear you, but....
Much different beast with much better tolerances and parts. How much do those brakes cost? And weigh?
Tough to compare 400lb motorcycles to 35lb bikes....
 
Mikie said:
You are lucky he used his pointing finger. I was surprised he didn't use his middle finger for me... ;):whistling:
We bof have a history of using our middle fingers...:laugh:
Click to expand...
One of the many things I like about you.

And you make a great point. I expect nothing less from Ross now than to throw a glove on and use his middle finger over the lever in a series of pictures to come. His middle finger will likely be erect and pointed in my direction. I have that coming, of course...
 
rossage said:
Here's a few pics for the aerospace crowd...
View attachment 41186
Click to expand...

I see you have your Free Stroke screw backed way out.

That leaky lever is what I do not like about Shimano brakes. Both sets of XT (785) I had, leaked like that just after a year of service. Thanks to Shimano not selling service kits for these....you either live with constant leaky levers, or you replace the brakes. At least SRAM wants you to service your brakes.
 
mtnbikej said:
I see you have your Free Stroke screw backed way out.

That leaky lever is what I do not like about Shimano brakes. Both sets of XT (785) I had, leaked like that just after a year of service. Thanks to Shimano not selling service kits for these....you either live with constant leaky levers, or you replace the brakes. At least SRAM wants you to service your brakes.
Click to expand...

I actually just bled the brake and forgot to screw it back in a few turns. I really don't think it does much if anything. Just don't want it to vibrate out!
 
mtnbikej said:
I see you have your Free Stroke screw backed way out.

That leaky lever is what I do not like about Shimano brakes. Both sets of XT (785) I had, leaked like that just after a year of service. Thanks to Shimano not selling service kits for these....you either live with constant leaky levers, or you replace the brakes. At least SRAM wants you to service your brakes.
Click to expand...
I have never had a leaky Shimano Brake system. Never.
YOU however, have a history of breaking everything. Well documented here on imtbtrails...:whistling:
 
45acpguy said:
Hey fellas, my LBS just called me back again. They’re saying that they will “upgrade” my brake system the Shimano Deore and they can do it today. Is the Shimano Deore line in fact an upgrade from the SRAM Level TL’s?
Click to expand...

They are about the same equivalent at the Level TL's.....not really an upgrade, unless you feel going from SRAM to Shimano is an upgrade. Price wise, the Shimano's are much cheaper than SRAM.

Level TL $102 from Jenson
Deore 6000 $62 from Jenson
 
45acpguy said:
Hey fellas, my LBS just called me back again. They’re saying that they will “upgrade” my brake system the Shimano Deore and they can do it today. Is the Shimano Deore line in fact an upgrade from the SRAM Level TL’s?
Click to expand...
Tell them you want the Shimano XT Ice Tech .
Tell them that Mikie Watson said so. :eek: They will look at you dumbfounded and say, "Who the hell is Mikie Watson?"
That's where you point at them and say, "EXACTLY! Who the hell "IS" Mikie Watson?!?!?!?" o_O
Then say, "Please give me a set of Shimano XT Ice Tech". Use your big sad eyes to show true pleading. I uh, assume you have eyes, well, and a face. Kinda hard to tell from your avatar. :p
I promise you go Ice Tech, you will never go back... :thumbsup:;) Despite what the rest of these hooligans tell yah...

I can burn up brakes with the best of them!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top