Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks

Faust29 said:
:thumbsup: Too cool...

Unlike an e-bike, those are purpose built machines for a disabled individual... They serve no other purpose. An e-bike is not designed to be solely (or at all?) an assistive mobility device.
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I’m not sure where I stand regarding ebikes and disability. Just thought I would throw out the idea that able bodied or not, nothing is gonna stop a thrill seeker.

Also, I want to know more about the recumbent trike. Looks burly and fun as hell. I would ride that for sure if I had the chance.
 
littlewave said:
I’m not sure where I stand regarding ebikes and disability. Just thought I would throw out the idea that able bodied or not, nothing is gonna stop a thrill seeker.

Also, I want to know more about the recumbent trike. Looks burly and fun as hell. I would ride that for sure if I had the chance.
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Nope... You are correct, and I should have chosen my words better in the post you replied to. :thumbsup:
 
littlewave said:
And tell me that recumbent trike doesn't look like an insanely fun ride?
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There is a guy who routinely rides a quad at Skypark. They even have worked with him to make sure he can get up, and down, the trails. He even joked that they modified a corner for him, that ended up making it harder. He ended up using the original layout after working out a method to slide the rear end around.
 
tick said:
I know ebikers think they blend in, but y’all are ridiculously easy to spot at a great distance.
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LOL!

I witnessed this last week out at Santiago Oaks. Sitting on top of Barham by Chutes trail, I saw a rider across the canyon climbing up Oak. He was moving at a ridiculous pace. Later on the same rider passed me at the bottom as I was climbing Coachwhip. Passed me like I was standing still. He got to the top before I was even halfway. No way in hell he was going less than 10mph uphill.
 
Redman said:
LOL!

I witnessed this last week out at Santiago Oaks. Sitting on top of Barham by Chutes trail, I saw a rider across the canyon climbing up Oak. He was moving at a ridiculous pace. Later on the same rider passed me at the bottom as I was climbing Coachwhip. Passed me like I was standing still. He got to the top before I was even halfway. No way in hell he was going less than 10mph uphill.
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The fastest pros climb Dreaded in Whiting between 7 and 8 minutes. I'm 13-14 minutes...:sick: :gag: Two guys on e-bikes did it *twice* back to back in the 6 minute range the other day. Motorcycles.
 
tick said:
I know ebikers think they blend in, but y’all are ridiculously easy to spot at a great distance.

I’ve only encountered one fit rider on an ebike ever. He was hard to spot, as he was taking a break. If you move at the speed of a World Cup champ but your BMI is over 30, you aren’t fooling anyone.
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That's why I specifically wrote "with a group of regular riders." ;)

I agree, solo e-poachers who are hopped up on digital EPO do look out of place to other riders. Those people should be easy to spot by local law enforcement should they decide they're worth going after.
 
LCF Trails Forum happened tonight. About 100 mt. bikers listening to Hallie and Andy talk about trail history and future. A few instigators tried to get some rabble roused, but most were constructive with their questions. I am not sure what the take away was for me. I'll chew on it for a day.

Topics included:
Why aren't they opening new trails?
How can we get Irvine Open Space and Bommer Canyon open full time?
How much time, money and labor does it take to maintain or rehabilitate a legal trail?

Seems many were willing to donate money, but fewer were willing to donate time. One rider pointed out that he (and others) don't want to spend time building or maintaining trails that aren't fun to ride. Kind of resonates with me. I want no part in building a section of trail like upper Camarillo that seemed intentionally designed to slow riders to a crawl (If you ride it with pace, you will lose the front end because it's outsloped after apex).

The scariest moment for me was when there was talk of actively destroying popular unauthorized trails. I asked for clarification on this. The mildly reassuring answer was "There are no plans to do so at this moment, but..."

@sir crashalot @kioti @littlewave and @shawndoh were among the IMTB royalty representing. Lots of SHARE members there as well. Patrick - the owner of Laguna Cyclery (and peddler of e-mt bikes) was present - and silent. Hans Rey was there. A few Bike Co guys (Chris and Ben), G2 bikes' owner AJ - who was agitated from the moment Hallie opened her mouth, a few RADs, etc. Mostly older guys with Laguna ties. Nobody really representing the younger out-of-town riders who are primarily responsible for the massive uptick in riding and widening unauthorized trails.

I publicly thanked Hallie, Andy and Mike for taking endless amounts of crap from hikers AND mt. bikers, and for advocating for mt. bikes. I also asked the assembled riders to do their part to minimize impact - avoid crowded times, large groups and posting on social media. Use awareness bells and be polite to hikers and other trail users.

I did get some face time with Barbara Norton from OC Parks. We had a great conversation. Her advice will shape policy. They are hosting a trails forum around the first of the year and will receive input that will influence the future trail usage of OC Parks - from E-Bikes to no bikes. I think we better be there.
 
herzalot said:
LCF Trails Forum happened tonight. About 100 mt. bikers listening to Hallie and Andy talk about trail history and future. A few instigators tried to get some rabble roused, but most were constructive with their questions. I am not sure what the take away was for me. I'll chew on it for a day.

Topics included:
Why aren't they opening new trails?
How can we get Irvine Open Space and Bommer Canyon open full time?
How much time, money and labor does it take to maintain or rehabilitate a legal trail?

Seems many were willing to donate money, but fewer were willing to donate time. One rider pointed out that he (and others) don't want to spend time building or maintaining trails that aren't fun to ride. Kind of resonates with me. I want no part in building a section of trail like upper Camarillo that seemed intentionally designed to slow riders to a crawl (If you ride it with pace, you will lose the front end because it's outsloped after apex).

The scariest moment for me was when there was talk of actively destroying popular unauthorized trails. I asked for clarification on this. The mildly reassuring answer was "There are no plans to do so at this moment, but..."

@sir crashalot @kioti @littlewave and @shawndoh were among the IMTB royalty representing. Lots of SHARE members there as well. Patrick - the owner of Laguna Cyclery (and peddler of e-mt bikes) was present - and silent. Hans Rey was there. A few Bike Co guys (Chris and Ben), G2 bikes' owner AJ - who was agitated from the moment Hallie opened her mouth, a few RADs, etc. Mostly older guys with Laguna ties. Nobody really representing the younger out-of-town riders who are primarily responsible for the massive uptick in riding and widening unauthorized trails.

I publicly thanked Hallie, Andy and Mike for taking endless amounts of crap from hikers AND mt. bikers, and for advocating for mt. bikes. I also asked the assembled riders to do their part to minimize impact - avoid crowded times, large groups and posting on social media. Use awareness bells and be polite to hikers and other trail users.

I did get some face time with Barbara Norton from OC Parks. We had a great conversation. Her advice will shape policy. They are hosting a trails forum around the first of the year and will receive input that will influence the future trail usage of OC Parks - from E-Bikes to no bikes. I think we better be there.
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Thanks for the report. Sounds like great drama...I will try to be present next time. I make a point of attending the local meetings here at the other end of the toll road, but getting to laguna on a weeknight is rough.

Ten years ago when Oaks was in question, that first meeting was easily the worst.
 
JamR said:
Mountain bikers are the largest user group: Not by a landslide. We may appear to be the largest group during the busiest periods, but much of the concept may be anecdotal simply due to how much ground we can cover in a small park like Aliso on the busy weekends. The actual data is dramatically different with many consistent surveys locally and across the country. This, coupled with years of camera data paints a different picture. The KH Consulting survey prepared for the strategic plan for OC, has the following recreation results. Sorry I don't have the data graph image, but the results of the recreation survey are as follows:
  • Walking 71%
  • Hiking/Trail Running 63%
  • Relaxing/Family Time 53%
  • Bird Watching 34%
  • Mountain biking was 10th on the list of 19 surveys and came in at 15%
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Fake news. This "survey" wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. If you look at their methodology, there was ZERO attempt to actually try to create a statistically significant sample of park users. Instead the entire research was based on bullshit "fliers" and "emails" to OC park email lists. Does this represent the public at large? NO. Does this represent the people who actually use the parks? NO.

The only thing worse than no research is BAD research. Someone needs to go to college - aka I hope this didn't cost taxpayers a penny. I wish I was at a public hearing where someone presented this crap parading as quantitative research. I would have laughed them out of the room.
 
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BonsaiNut said:
Fake news. Take it from someone with a master's degree in Marketing Research - this "survey" wasn't worth the paper it was printed on. If you look at their methodology, there was ZERO attempt to actually try to create a statistically significant sample of park users. Instead the entire research was based on bullshit "fliers" and "emails" to OC park email lists. Does this represent the public at large? NO. Does this represent the people who actually use the parks? NO.

The only thing worse than no research is BAD research. Someone needs to go to college - aka I hope this didn't cost taxpayers a penny. I wish I was at a public hearing where someone presented this crap parading as quantitative research. I would have laughed them out of the room.
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So, you are saying the survey isn't valid or reliable. Hey, even I remember some of the stuff from college 30 some years ago. Maybe they should take a look at something like this - https://www.joe.org/joe/2007february/tt2.php
Or, maybe they don't want real results.
 
Any chance we’ll get a pod debriefing of tonight? The pod was excellent, all the thoughts seem well formulated. I could quibble around the edges but really really good stuff.
 
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CBone said:
So, you are saying the survey isn't valid or reliable. Hey, even I remember some of the stuff from college 30 some years ago. Maybe they should take a look at something like this - https://www.joe.org/joe/2007february/tt2.php
Or, maybe they don't want real results.
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Proof reading is helpful too. "Well-crafted conceptualization of the content and transformation of the content into questions (Step 2) is inessential to minimize measurement error." (Inessential?)
 
herzalot said:
I also asked the assembled riders to do their part to minimize impact - avoid crowded times, large groups and posting on social media. Use awareness bells and be polite to hikers and other trail users.
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I had a really hard time not saying screw it, it's too nice an evening not to ride.. but I haven't been to a good bar fight in awhile so what the hell. j/k

Like Chris said, good turn-out. Good explanation by Hallie on the original goals of the two parks and LCF/OCParks involvement. Good questions from the crowd and conversations with fellow riders including @sir crashalot, local trail builders and Rangers Barbara and Zach. I thought I caught a glimpse of Christian Bale, but it turned out to be @shawndoh. We talked about his podcast, which I listened to today and thoroughly enjoyed.

I think it was CJ who brought up the topic of pre-vetted strike teams to work on trails in the two parks immediately following storms. This is something I've practiced for about 10 years, and I think it's the best hope for cleaning up the authorized trails in Aliso and Laguna Coast. There are too many trails for LCF's current trail work staff and volunteers to manage when those conditions occur, and the trails show it. I've also heard a consensus from a small number of riders I've talked to that having a trail steward for each trail would help greatly in handling problems as they come up, such as discouraging p-lines, filling user-caused holes, etc. like at the bottom drop on Car Wreck.

Another important factor to me is the elimination of blind corners as much as possible. Blind corners on 2-way, multi-use trails are accidents waiting to happen, IMO. The easiest way to improve visibility is to create and maintain sight lines down trail and through the inside of turns. This can be as unobtrusive as "windows" cut through brush, or lowering the height of brush so riders and hikers can see each other over the top. This type of trimming has to be done during the brush cutting (non-birdnesting) season, but is a simple way of reducing conflict and increasing comfort and awareness between various trail users.

Thanks to all who showed up, and special thanks to Barbara and Zach for coming on their own time to answer questions and increase communication between OC Parks and the mountain bike community. And thank you as well to Mo for helping spread the word and getting a good turn-out.
 
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Thanks for the imput and good to see you, @herzalot and @kioti. A special thanks to Chris for speaking up and defending Hallie for all the crap shes put up with, from both riders and hikers.. There is passion on all sides of this subject but it falls into the realm of "first-world problems" and being uncivil is just not called for, and this meeting stayed civil, except for one individual sorta. I didnt really speak up at this meeting because im not much of a public speaker, but i think its appreciated when we show up to these things. I did want to ask that within the scheduled maintenance on the legal trails, please dont remove the fun tech stuff. One person said, "I think we're all here because we'd like to see more of the unauthorized trails adopted into the system". While in a perfect world of course I'd love to have more trails, I do understand the legal end ecological problems of having more than a certain number of trails in this relatively small and highly impacted area, which hallie addressed. Basically it boiled down to: only when maintenance of the legal trail system is manageable and sustainable, then and only then can we maybe open more. In light of the original post of this thread, first and foremost to me personally, is having bikes not being banned from the park in general. That is more imporatnt to me at this time than adding more trails. I dunno what id do if bikes were shut out of my backyard trails. Yesterday morning Knuckles and I rode Ratllesnake, Lizards, and TnA; a fun climb- chunk- and flow-fest 5 minutes from my house, on an uncroweded day in a protected wilderness area that was not originally intended to be a bike park (Man I love my midweek days off!) . Sometimes maybe I'm just happy with what I have. Hallie was asked point blank if the rumour that the idea of banning bikes was being tossed around, and she said shes heard no such thing. Not sure if thats true; maybe she was being politic and avoiding a torches and pitchforks scene haha. At least it doesnt seem like banning bikes is imminent. I think that for now the best thing to do is respect park staff and other users, stay off the unauthorized trails, and help with maintenance of (and add our input!) the legal trail system if possible. I do agree with Koiti that there may be better ways to deal with the overhelming amount of work in this incredibly impacted area. I wish I could do some more trailwork time, but all the scheduled work days seem to be on weekends when I’m working and my free time may be reduced in the near future due to elderly family members.
 
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sir crashalot said:
tommy talks about the meeting, he didnt attend but his friend did.
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Ohhh, the irony...

His takeaway was that they need more people to do trail maintenance on existing trails before they could add more trails. I guess that's a pretty good takeaway. If they do join up for trailwork (he posted Laguna Foundation not Laguna Canyon Foundation, so there's that), maybe they will find out more about how to ride light - that is - how to ride and not let anyone know you were even there. No trail cutting, no large groups, no trail widening, no unnecessary noise, no disruption of residents, no social media for off-menu trails - nothing but respect and kindness for other trail users, the trail, rangers and residents. Stealthy, respectful riding.

I have hope.
 
herzalot said:
Ohhh, the irony...

His takeaway was that they need more people to do trail maintenance on existing trails before they could add more trails. I guess that's a pretty good takeaway. If they do join up for trailwork (he posted Laguna Foundation not Laguna Canyon Foundation, so there's that), maybe they will find out more about how to ride light - that is - how to ride and not let anyone know you were even there. No trail cutting, no large groups, no trail widening, no unnecessary noise, no disruption of residents, no social media for off-menu trails - nothing but respect and kindness for other trail users, the trail, rangers and residents. Stealthy, respectful riding.

I have hope.
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And it only took 3.5 mins into his video before he went off menu.

Someone needs to tell that knob he's not as awesome as he thinks he is. None of his other riders were wearing a FF lid.
 
mtnbikej said:
And it only took 3.5 mins into his video before he went off menu.

Someone needs to tell that knob he's not as awesome as he thinks he is. None of his other riders were wearing a FF lid.
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He sounds young.
herzalot said:
Ohhh, the irony...

His takeaway was that they need more people to do trail maintenance on existing trails before they could add more trails. I guess that's a pretty good takeaway. If they do join up for trailwork (he posted Laguna Foundation not Laguna Canyon Foundation, so there's that), maybe they will find out more about how to ride light - that is - how to ride and not let anyone know you were even there. No trail cutting, no large groups, no trail widening, no unnecessary noise, no disruption of residents, no social media for off-menu trails - nothing but respect and kindness for other trail users, the trail, rangers and residents. Stealthy, respectful riding.

I have hope.
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Now if the super geniuses riding Oaks and Peters after dark could just buy night vision goggles.

How stealthy do you think a 6-deep line of 1500 lumen headlamps is? I get it that the days are short, and maybe you were just running a little late, but when you roll through Peters you are almost literally in peoples’ backyards the whole time. Everyone here sees you and knows park policy.

I’d welcome a change in policy to reflect modern lighting tech, but flagrant behavior like this annoys me.
 
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Wilderness parks are more stringent than regional parks, but yeah..

I'm not gonna fault anyone for wearing a full face helmet. It's their head they're protecting.

People have grown up with social media, they're going to need solid reasons to not post videos or name names.

As for not signing illegal trails, I know and understand the concept.. but I also understand curiosity, adventure, challenge..
 
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