Why does nobody talk about Diamondback mtbikes?

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herzalot said:
Almost all bikes are made in China or Taiwan right now especially those made of carbon - including Yeti, Santa Cruz, Pivot, Intense and most of the "cool" brands. But like Rojomas said, there is something about a bike engineered and built by mountain bikers from a company that only makes mountain bikes... (and actually, I think Diamondback is only an MtB label).
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I read an interview with an engineer at Trek and it stated that a small percentage of their bikes are manufactured in USA. Most likely the high end ones that President Bush used to (or still) rides.

"The company will make "somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 bikes this year" in Wisconsin, says Jim Colegrove, Trek's senior composites manufacturing engineer."
http://www.cnbc.com/2014/08/01/in-waterloo-wisconsin-a-passion-for-made-in-usa-bicycles.html

Doesn't Intense only make bikes in USA?

http://www.usalovelist.com/american-made-bikes-trikes-high-performance-ultimate-source-list/
 
Made in USA typically equates to higher prices and perhaps better quality. Is it worth it if there is a lifetime warranty on the frame? What if I wanted a Taiwanese option from Intense?
 
doublewide said:
Read this, three of the top four bicycle companies have Giant make their bikes.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/10/18/taiwan-bike-tour-giant-bicycles-taichung-factory-visit/
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"As for Giant, there’s only one shift, 8:00am to 5:30pm, that can make up to 5,000 bikes per day. There were no child laborers and no insane ’round the clock slave shifts. Oh, and no suicide nets on the windows. "

Does the 5000/day include QA or just assembly? Either way, that's a serious operation.

What were the other companies that Giant makes for? I couldn't read the entire article it's so long.
 
doublewide said:
That's why I put it up. You're a big boy, you can finish it I have faith in you. :thumbsup:
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See that's what I'm talking about. [refrain] anyways thx for the article, it was interesting. esp. suicide nets, sounds like a death metal song.
 
verdugist said:
What if I wanted a Taiwanese option from Intense?
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I'm sorry but huh?... then go buy a Taiwanese knock off!
Why should Intense dumb down there brand just because you would rather buy a frame that's built in an other country instead of one that's built in the US that's supporting an American worker? I, personally am happy to support a local company that supports local workers.
 
verdugist said:
I read an interview with an engineer at Trek and it stated that a small percentage of their bikes are manufactured in USA. Most likely the high end ones that President Bush used to (or still) rides.

"The company will make "somewhere between 20,000 and 25,000 bikes this year" in Wisconsin, says Jim Colegrove, Trek's senior composites manufacturing engineer."
http://www.cnbc.com/2014/08/01/in-waterloo-wisconsin-a-passion-for-made-in-usa-bicycles.html

Doesn't Intense only make bikes in USA?

http://www.usalovelist.com/american-made-bikes-trikes-high-performance-ultimate-source-list/
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No Turner, Ventana, Ellsworth and Foes makes them right here in California. Here is a list of American made bikes.

http://oldglorymtb.com/mountain-bikes-made-in-america/

As for Intense, I read somewhere that the carbon frames are made elsewhere. I need to find the article.

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Intense-Carbon-Carbine-First-Look-2011.html
 
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verdugist said:
Made in USA typically equates to higher prices and perhaps better quality. Is it worth it if there is a lifetime warranty on the frame? What if I wanted a Taiwanese option from Intense?
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A lot of boutique companies frames are made overseas and still charge a premium. So made in the USA is not always more expensive. I have a Devinci carbon frame. It is completely made in Canada and the new carbon frames sell for $2100.00. Made in North America and cheaper than most comparable frames.
 
None of the carbon frames from any manufacturer are made in the USA - and I doubt DeVinci's $2100 carbon frames are built in Canada. Time to research what I believe I've already read.

EDIT: I can't find anything to contradict DeVinci's claim that raw carbon comes in one end of their Canadian facility and frames/bikes come out the other end. And I have searched for a full 5 minutes!

Unless Quebec has the same lack of environmental controls and labor rules as China and Taiwan, I still seriously doubt their carbon bikes are laid up in Canada. The carbon itself clearly comes from overseas - so how "raw" is the raw material that comes in one end of the factory? Is it pellets, woven fabric or nearly complete frames?
 
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rojomas said:
I'm sorry but huh?... then go buy a Taiwanese knock off!
Why should Intense dumb down there brand just because you would rather buy a frame that's built in an other country instead of one that's built in the US that's supporting an American worker? I, personally am happy to support a local company that supports local workers.
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Intense's carbon frames are made overseas - Taiwan, I believe.
http://nsmb.com/inside-the-new-intense-bikes/

"Herrick spoke passionately – at a media event surrounding this business announcement as well as a new bike on the horizon – about his decision to come on board at Intense. He stated that “truly authentic, unique, beautiful, focused brands are rare in our industry – and we need to embrace them”. What defines one of these unique companies? Herrick had five points:
  • they are run by enthusiasts
  • they are authentic to their category
  • they must have some scale (size)
  • they understand the rider
  • they are known globally
It’s obvious that he counts Intense among these, and cited Santa Cruz, Yeti, and Ibis as other examples – all companies who have US roots, offshore carbon production, and yet still passionate followings. Under Herrick’s guidance, Intense is moving into a new stage, where product availability and service to the dealer and customer network is improved."
 
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Danmtchl said:
No Turner, Ventana, Ellsworth and Foes makes them right here in California. Here is a list of American made bikes.

http://oldglorymtb.com/mountain-bikes-made-in-america/

As for Intense, I read somewhere that the carbon frames are made elsewhere. I need to find the article.
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Yes, the carbon frames are made by a German design firm named Seed that is known for their expertise in carbon manufacturing. I read somewhere that Jeff said that the reason he decided to outsource them was because they really know what they are doing and Intense just couldn't produce that quality of a carbon frame.
I'm pretty sure that if he could, he would produce them in house. I don't know how I got there but a few weeks ago I watched a video where the city of Temecula was recognizing Jeff Steber for his contributions to the economy of Temecula. He went on to talk about how he tries to source as much as he can locally.
 
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SEED just designs the layup schedule to get the stiffness, ride feel, strength, and toughness they want. They're an engineering consultation group, not too unlike Sotto Group (Santa Cruz VPP2, Tomac, Mountain Cycle, Yeti, and Breezer/Fuji) and Denk Engineering (Scott, Cannondale, GT, and now Spec), but they specialize in carbon design. Intense does the general modeling for frame shape and look, with some recommendations from SEED. A Taiwanese carbon factory does the actual manufacturing. Intense machines the hardware like the links, bolts, axles, and dropouts, and does all the assembly. They could be close to legally calling them made in USA, if they add enough value to the frame to say the majority of it was done in USA, but that undoubtedly come with a price increase.

Besides Ellsworth, I can't find any exceptions to the rule where North American brands have their carbon mtn bike frames made in China or Taiwan. Ellsworth is currently the only big name brand making carbon mtn bikes in the US, that I know of. There are small custom shops making carbon bikes, like Parlee, Calfee, Independent Fabrication, Guru (Canada), Alchemy, Appleman, etc., but I think only Appleman and Alchemy make mtn bikes wile the rest mainly do road and CX. Trek is the largest US carbon bike manufacturer, but that's only limited to their top-of-the-line road bikes like the higher series Madone, Domane, and Emonda. The "Made in USA" brands only make their alloy bikes in the US (Devinci only makes their high end alloy frames in Canada). Some trivia, Devinci has Enve make seat stays for one of their lower volume bikes (I'm guessing the new Wilson).

The carbon factories in Taiwan typically have well educated engineers on staff too, but they might not be free to assist those with small volume orders like those from Intense. It would not be a poor speculation to think that Intense is collaborating with Santa Cruz, possibly using the same factory and the older molds, in exchange for layup improvements learned from working with SEED.
 
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Varaxis said:
SEED just designs the layup schedule to get the stiffness, ride feel, strength, and toughness they want. They're an engineering consultation group, not too unlike Sotto Group (Santa Cruz VPP2, Tomac, Mountain Cycle, Yeti, and Breezer/Fuji) and Denk Engineering (GT, Cannondale, and now Spec), but they specialize in carbon design. Intense does the general modeling for frame shape and look, with some recommendations from SEED. A Taiwanese carbon factory does the actual manufacturing. Intense machines the hardware like the links, bolts, axles, and dropouts.

Besides Ellsworth, I can't find any exceptions to the rule where North American brands have their carbon made anywhere but in China or Taiwan. Ellsworth is currently the only big name brand making carbon mtn bikes in the US, that I know of. There are small custom shops making carbon bikes, like Parlee, Calfee, Independent Fabrication, Guru (Canada), Alchemy, Appleman, etc., but I think only Appleman and Alchemy make mtn bikes wile the rest mainly do road and CX. Trek is the largest US carbon bike manufacturer, but that's only limited to their top-of-the-line road bikes like the higher series Madone, Domane, and Emonda. The "Made in USA" brands only make their alloy bikes in the US (Devinci only makes their alloy frames in Canada). Some trivia, Devinci has Enve make seat stays for one of their lower volume bikes (I'm guessing the new Wilson).
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Devinci, is kinda a low volume company, comparing to the other bicycle companies. I am going to say the Troy since I have one.
 
Danmtchl said:
No Turner, Ventana, Ellsworth and Foes makes them right here in California. Here is a list of American made bikes.

http://oldglorymtb.com/mountain-bikes-made-in-america/
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That's a cool link, thanks. A LOT of bikes made in The States, even Aussie Cycleworks, which is kinda' funny.

Co-Motion is not on the list, as they don't make MTBs, but I've read (can't cite) that they are the largest manufacturer of frames in the US. They make their own, but also a lot for other companies that put their own labels on 'em.
 
Danmtchl said:
No Turner, Ventana, Ellsworth and Foes makes them right here in California. Here is a list of American made bikes.
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Though Ellsworth is based out of Ramona California the manufacturing is primarily done out of Vancouver Washington. Their building in Ramona is barely more than an office with a workbench.
 
doublewide said:
Read this, three of the top four bicycle companies have Giant make their bikes.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/10/18/taiwan-bike-tour-giant-bicycles-taichung-factory-visit/
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Giant incorporates quite a bit of aerospace level tech into their production. Small things people take for granted like helicoils in places like post mount brake mounts, instead of simply tapped aluminum (soft metal, jamming a hard metal like a steel bolt in there). Too bad their own bikes have too tall geo. Trek's #1 for many good reasons, and even their value has shot up quite a bit on select models, while Giant's has gone down.

Top 4 is Trek, Spec, Giant, Scott?

Turners are made in Oregon.

Don't really want to go into the whole psychological thing about society and how it views brands that do entry level... I will note that there's a lot of nonsensical human behavior that have been shaped by the media. People don't get excited by Kias, Hyundais, stuff made from recycled goods, health food, or really affordable stuff in general... heck, people who honestly admit doing something minor, for example borrowing someone else's stuff without asking, that's morally questionable are treated as if they have mental issues, but those that do the same yet openly lie and deny doing so, even with clear proof that they did do it, are forgiven and accepted (and anyone who presses the issue further, calling them liars, get reprimanded instead). Can't really do much about the stigmas out there... you would get criticized for merely saying you have observed such behavior by those who may believe you're talking about them, due to their natural defenses kicking in that wants to deny any moral issues or imperfections, when it's normal for humans to be imperfect.
 
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verdugist said:
What do you mean by this comment? Top 4 overall or what?
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I was replying to doublewide's comment, which I quoted, looking for confirmation about the top 4 bike companies. Scott's pretty big globally, but not so much in the US, and Giant does make alloy bikes for them. Spec is made by Merida. I don't think Canyon's that big, so by elimination, I guessed Scott.
 
I wonder what percentage of frames made in China are titanium vs. aluminum vs. steel vs. carbon.

I've heard titanium is very expensive, what is the advantage? lighter and stronger?
 
I'd like to answer your questions, but I'm afraid my conjecture would not help you and you might be lost if I start citing matweb stuff.

I'll just say that you can have the best material available with properties that are 2-10x better than typical materials used, but it could be worse than a product that suits your needs that was made from a conventional material, due to the craftsmanship levels tapping so much potential out of the conventional material, compared to the very unrefined experimentation-level processes done using the better material.

That all said, carbon is the best material for bike frames of those 4, but mass-market craftsmanship levels have only recently tapped enough potential out of it to truly outperform the rest.

Following the subjects brought up in this topic, I wonder how many people participating in this thread would be willing to jump into the world of carbon fiber frame building, compared to steel. Now think about how likely carbon frame making is in the US at current wages. If it took 100 hours per frame, from the roll of carbon to the box... don't even think of $10/hr wages, as I doubt graduates out of public high schools are prepared to do such work that would meet riders' satisfaction. Compare to making your own steel frame, a lot of the cost is for the machining stuff and the jig. For the cost and effort, you might put in $5000 and months/years to make a batch of 5-10 frames, refining the craft, or you can shell out $500 for a chinese no-name carbon frame and ride something that's way better than anything you could've made, unless you are good at fooling yourself into believing otherwise.
 
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verdugist said:
DB makes entry level and high end bikes. But nobody ever seems to own one or talk about one. Why?
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I got one. I ride it to go get beer sometimes.

Dbacksize.jpg
Dback.jpg
 
Actually, my first mountain bike was a 94 DB Apex with a Specialized Future Shock. Wish I had pictures to share. Hell, I don't even know what I did with that bike.
 
rojomas said:
Though Ellsworth is based out of Ramona California the manufacturing is primarily done out of Vancouver Washington. Their building in Ramona is barely more than an office with a workbench.
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They are setting up to build all the frames in in San Diego. So they will be made in Cali.
 
CarlS said:
Yep. backyard trails in Meadowview area. and you are supposed to be part of the HOA to ride there. :cautious: :unsure: :stop: What you see is all there really is. not much, but some short connector trails to hit instead of pavement
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Probably took a pic on the one of the 10 or so days a year it isn't super sunny and the ground wasn't all toasty looking from a drought. :whistling:
 
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