Watts it to you? A humble discussion about power meters and fitness. arrgh

  • Thread starter Thread starter dustyyoungblood
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I don't really want it to be about me. I just don't like hearing people put limitations on others. Never tell someone you will never _____ because of their bike. Never blame equipment.

Hell, I've been passed on the run of a triathlon by someone missing a leg. Beat in a 12 hour by another guy missing a leg. And I've watched someone change a flat tire with no arms. And I've been beaten by many, many girls.

I haven't tested my FTP since before the race season started, I have no idea where it is now. I do know that there is a guy I raced all last season who had a near identical w/kg, and I beat him in all but one race. I have a friend who has a near identical FTP as me, and he destroys EVERYONE in every race.
 
Oh for (deity's) sake @Sidewalk - I didn't blame the bike. Get over it. Some bikes are easier to pedal up a hill quickly than others. That's an observation. Of course there are exceptions. No one suggested that Dusty needs to buy a new bike, or that he can't improve because of his bike. There is no "blaming" of equipment. I think we all agreed that Dusty should ride more and climb more to make progress. And hydrate, apparently.

For the sake of @Sidewalk , I whereby withdraw any hint of equipment-based limitation. You (@dustyyoungblood) are now free to achieve in an unlimited fashion. Go get it! :thumbsup:
 
Screw all of you; of course it's the bike's fault! If the bike didn't matter, there would be one kind of bike. All of those case studies of people with inappropriate equipment performing better than others would be substantially accentuated with...appropriate equipment. All ya'll would be better off riding the bikes I determine to be appropriate for each of you. Make an appointment to come see me, one at a time please.
 
Cool conversation here. I don't know much about watts or power, etc. but I drastically improved my climbing speed and overall endurance by focusing more on high intensity training. Instead of going for a 2 or 3 mile run at a slow to moderate pace, I ran 40 yard sprints with short rests (10 seconds or so) or 1/4 mile laps around at a fast pace (1 minute rest in between). Also there is a short hill near my house where I can do hill repeats. 10 to 15 sprints (on the bike) before work 2 or 3 times a week did wonders as well. Also dialing in the diet is huge. Once I got the diet and exercise routine in sync, all of a sudden I'm waiting for my friends at the top of Mathis. Again, sorry for not contributing much to the Watts conversation, but if you really want to improve climbing/endurance, I think this is the way to go.

TLDR- ride more. Ride harder. haha.
 
I don't know how this one is going south...... F@ck.

A couple notes.
1. As far as pedaling goes, power is everything. Don't be fantastical by thinking it's not. Even small percentages in more power will make some pretty drastic changes on the clock, even on short rides let alone the stuff out past 3 hours and thousands of feet. If power didn't matter then I could tow my 5,000lb trailer with a fiat instead of my truck. But I can't, a fiat don't have enough power. Just like I barely have enough power to turn my 30-44 up mustard without a breath break. My reasons for asking about power are kind of personal and I'm using all your input to make some decisions about how I am spending my time. Thank you.

2. All the arguments about equipment choice do mater, otherwise I could pedal my wife's 3 speed Nirve beach cruiser the same as my foes. Which I can't. I tried that. Any other bike I would consider riding on the trails I enjoy would only provide a marginal weight savings. Like nearly negligible. If i was trying to compete in short track XC then that's a different use case and of course I would adjust the equipment. But equipment is a separate topic from power. Totally and completely seperate discussion.
 
I am going to ask the group of 8 guys I ride with at work to all do the 20min test on one of the exercise bikes and report me their average watts. That will fulfill my curiosity and paint a picture for me to study.
 
dustyyoungblood said:
I am going to ask the group of 8 guys I ride with at work to all do the 20min test on one of the exercise bikes and report me their average watts. That will fulfill my curiosity and paint a picture for me to study.
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Dude's going deep! :eek:

That's why I avoid data - I would go every bit as deep as you are going.

As long as I can beat at least two of our IMTB regulars up Mathis or Cholla, I'm content. Especially if they are younger than me! Honestly, I feel fortunate that I climb Mathis to ToW without stopping. I often think of @Mikie 's signature when I am doing so. :unsure:

More power to you, good Sir Dusty!!!! :cool:
 
mtnbikej said:
@dustyyoungblood

Do you think that your lack of power while out on the ride has anything to do with the fact that you went back to flat pedals?

http://www.imtbtrails.com/forum/threads/time-atac-dh4-pedals.5507/#post-93499
Click to expand...

The funny part is, I have PR'd mustard in WR 2x and all the climbs on STT to Luge including modjeska rd. So for me the Flat vs clipless argument for power is moot.

Also, I don't have power meter on the trail, I'll only done 2x 29 min tests indoors.
 
I like what @Bryon reminded us, the intensity angle. Pragmatic because time is usually the defining factor in how much we ride.

To someone looking to discover power, I think a SS bike is an incredibly useful tool. Not only b/c it gives the most intense cardio and all-body workout, but because it will ultimately show a rider that he's more capable than he believed possible. It proves that low gears, and gears altogether are a convenience that reasonable humans will opt for if available. It refines riding technique. Sure, complete ass kickings should be expected. How serious are you about getting strong? I've got a chain tensioner, spacer kit and cog you can borrow for your Mixer. :sneaky:
 
This has all been very fascinating...

I hated my trainer in 1995. He was prepping me for the 1996 NORBA nationals series.
My Schedule:
Sunday - Race
Monday - Off with extensive stretching
Tuesday - LSD (Long Slow Distance) 35- 40 miles low heart rate/fat burner
Wednesday - Sprints with others faster than me (Lots of Sprints... I hated Sprints)
Thursday - 1 Hour Time Trial climbing a series of short punchy steeps (I hate these too.)
Friday - Easy paced 15 to 20 miles of long grind fire road or road bike climbs under race pace (My favorite stuff)
Saturday - Rest, maybe spin on rollers for a hour

-Repeat

1995 and 1996 were some of the most gruesome but successful years of biking for me.
The guys I trained with were absolutely brutal. If I was the last to a check point, they got to wait for me to arrive and then we immediately took off. Meaning I got no break. Gasping for breath I put foot to pedal.
I threw up, a lot. I laid in bed sometimes thinking I can't do this and I didn't have what it took. Then I got up and did it again.

At one race my trainer insisted I wear a heart rate monitor. He told me that I was to keep my heart rate around 180 max. In the heat of the race I was trailing 1st place by about 100 yards. I looked down and I was pumping 212. I had to make a decision. Listen to my trainer or do what it took.
I won the race. When I pulled into the pits I took off the heart rate monitor and tossed it at my trainer and , said, "I'm here to win races, not monitor my f@cking heart rate."

Nothing is going to replace mega time in the saddle. Nothing is going to replace beating yourself to complete exhaustion... nothing. Eff the stats and charts, and data. Results are all you are looking for. The checkered flag of your own expectations on the trail, not in a lab.

If this is that important to you, go find guys that literally kick your ass and ride with them and let them beat the soul out of you like those guys did to me. After that, you will climb just fine... :)
Trust me.
 
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This post month has been the 1st time in my cycling life (5yrs) that I have actually trained. Coach and everything. I don't think it would be fun year round, but for the time I need it's been pretty fulfilling.

If you wanna get crushed by an educated person, here is her contact. Remember that a forum is what it is, not to say there is a lack of experience here. But a pro is a pro.

"Jeana Miller, M.S. │Endurance Coach│Carmichael Training Systems│
jmiller@trainright.com│714.926.7312
USA Cycling Level 2 Coach |https://www.facebook.com/Millercoaching"
 
Tried again today, this time on the Star Trac studio7 with 4iiii.
216 avg 20min

So now I have 3 results across 6 days.
206,219,216 technique was varied across all three tests, plus I had no legs today so it's a good "real world" day to day trail average

Guy in my group took the challenge today and did 242. Which I bet if I did the math would explain exactly the near 5 min gap he puts on my on Mustard.
I'll locate my weakness's through empirical evidence rather than conjecture.
 
Mikie said:
This has all been very fascinating...
If this is that important to you, go find guys that literally kick your ass and ride with them and let them beat the soul out of you like those guys did to me. After that, you will climb just fine... :)
Trust me.
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Most of the time I ride with guys who are faster than me....... at times, I ask them to slow down for the fat/old guy.
Most of them don't.
When I chase them regularly, I improve.

Don't forget to rest! I try to rest as much as I can :-).
Too much rest is better than not enough.
 
I have a power meter on my trainer. It's really hard to make it stay within 25 watts of where it's supposed to be on the Kinetic App. :bang:

I have also noticed that for me, personally, the cadence recommended is ridiculous. I cannot imagine doing 90 rpm on either bike for any length of time. Yes, I know that's supposed to be the "sweet spot" for maximum power with the least effort, but it feels like I'm on a hamster wheel. Maybe it's just my inner mtb'er talking, but I'd much rather do 65 rpm at 200 watts. I can do that longer, too.
 
"The guys I trained with were absolutely brutal. If I was the last to a check point, they got to wait for me to arrive and then we immediately took off." I have ridden with that group many times.
Happy being the wag at the end of the dog trails.
 
shawndoh said:
This post month has been the 1st time in my cycling life (5yrs) that I have actually trained. Coach and everything. I don't think it would be fun year round, but for the time I need it's been pretty fulfilling.

If you wanna get crushed by an educated person, here is her contact. Remember that a forum is what it is, not to say there is a lack of experience here. But a pro is a pro.

"Jeana Miller, M.S. │Endurance Coach│Carmichael Training Systems│
jmiller@trainright.com│714.926.7312
USA Cycling Level 2 Coach |https://www.facebook.com/Millercoaching"
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This is a fantastic recommendation. Thanks @shawndoh. I was considering using Carmichael to achieve some goals in 2007. Then I was injured and life went another direction.
 
Runs with Scissors said:
I have a power meter on my trainer. It's really hard to make it stay within 25 watts of where it's supposed to be on the Kinetic App. :bang:

I have also noticed that for me, personally, the cadence recommended is ridiculous. I cannot imagine doing 90 rpm on either bike for any length of time. Yes, I know that's supposed to be the "sweet spot" for maximum power with the least effort, but it feels like I'm on a hamster wheel. Maybe it's just my inner mtb'er talking, but I'd much rather do 65 rpm at 200 watts. I can do that longer, too.
Click to expand...

Some people are best at 82rpm, some at 105. It's personal flavor as far as I am concerned. Variance works best for me(I think)

You ever look at Chris Froomes saddle hieght? That's a trip but it works for him.
 
Ok so another in my group tested today and did 235 avg watts at 20min. I would have expected him higher given how he goes. But he's 20lb lighter than me so that makes up the dif.

I am so happy I discovered my 2 buddies make more power than me. It explains it to me clearly instead of worrry about my tire size and a bike 2pounds heavier than I wanted and not having CF rims. Cheers all
 
dustyyoungblood said:
229!!!
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Question...

Is the increase because you're focusing on the numbers now, and trying consciously to push harder? Or, stated another way... You were that strong before, but just needed the right motivation to bring it out.

When I started the single speed experiment almost 2 years ago, I was a lot stronger than I thought... I would have never guessed the stuff I could climb without my trusty 32x36 or 32x42.
 
Faust29 said:
Question...

Is the increase because you're focusing on the numbers now, and trying consciously to push harder? Or, stated another way... You were that strong before, but just needed the right motivation to bring it out.

When I started the single speed experiment almost 2 years ago, I was a lot stronger than I thought... I would have never guessed the stuff I could climb without my trusty 32x36 or 32x42.
Click to expand...

Technique change.
Lower cadence. 62-77 RPM for first 14 min stayng in yellow HR zone. Grinding away
then high cadence, 100 ish last 6 min and red zoning HR.

I went to early also, I had to trottle back and was coasting at 100 watts most of final 2min because I ran out of HR faster than expected.

So look, I learned something that will improve my MTB climbing experience.
 
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