Suspension performance: Single pivot Vs everything else (a story of kinematics and acronyms)

  • Thread starter Thread starter dustyyoungblood
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You've made this statement and it is this statement that I disagree with.

"Tire, tire pressure, rider position, geometry, and damper tune each benefits that sort of braking performance far more than the linkage design does.

This whole thread's point actually is about how people are misled to believing that bicycle suspension systems are/aren't responsible for certain characteristics, when it's essentially only really responsible for managing the up-and-down movement of the rear wheel."

Given equal wheelsets, tires, optimal tire pressures, etc. a bike with no linkage would not outperform one with modern suspension over vary terrain, and that is a fact.

I believe you are misleading yourself into thinking that suspension design have so little weight in the overall performance of the bike. Plainly said, your views on single pivot seem more curated internet theory distilled into 2 lines of well worded sentences. For me, I'd take the fallible experienced view over the well worded ideas any day. Education is not binary and dissenting views are not foolish. You should strive to stack your education against others and either build on them or strengthen your own position.
 
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I think you went to the far edge or the argument. Yeah, all things being top notch, good modern linkage suspension design will be better than single pivot.
I think he was playing in the middle ground, where "Tire, tire pressure, rider position, geometry, and damper tune" can make single pivot pretty damn good.
So dont assume that just because its single pivot, its junk...or has brake jack and bobs. etc.

Or I just read it all wrong.....

Hardtails FTW!
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@Torrent77 does not understand how @Varaxis is wired. Our man Dan (Varaxis) is the most consistently pure empiricist I've ever (not actually) met. He has frequently reminded us that those who use subjective data are uneducated, ignorant, delusional simpletons. I admire his consistency and his stalwart belief in the permanence of physics, and separation of science from human experience. In Varaxis' point of view - no not just point of view - core - nearly every experience can be quantified and extracted from human experience to prove better or worse. Since most of the rest of us just repeat what we've heard (brake jack or clip-in pedals for example) or what we think we've experienced, it's always impressive to see Varaxis debunk our myths with relatively complicated explanations of the physics involved.
 
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Varaxis said:
Think of the bikes that you OTB'd most on, and they might be bikes without rear suspension and/or bikes with low brake anti-rise (ex. Horst link bikes, Ellsworth in particular), especially smaller diameter-wheeled bikes.
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My endos have never been caused by braking - well except the first time I rode a neighbor's Schwinn Lemon Peeler when I was 10. My MtB endos have always been caused by the stopping of forward momentum of the front wheel by objects not on my bike - rocks, logs or the ground itself (angles). These days, my OTBs are more often oblique - caused by losing the front wheel off to one side or another followed by a diagonal get off.
 
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My last endo was because my 26 inch wheel went into a 27 inch hole of rock on a trail named car wreck. I then proceeded to go over the bars land with my leg through my forward triangle and ended sitting on my rear rotor with my bell rung, and saying, "Do you guys smell something burning?"

I have witnesses.
 
Mikie said:
I have witnesses.
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You were a couple bike lengths in front of me. I thought you were going to be dead after seeing your feet and bike fly up in the air and then you landing on that rock garden... one of the worst looking crashes I've seen, no idea how you survived it. Took some effort to get your foot out of your frame, and to tube the front tire that burped. BUT, you hung in there and got in the picture that is in the upper left corner of the imtbt page.:thumbsup:

Regarding the single pivot, I think we can adapt to just about anything, even low levels of brake anti rise :confused:. Plenty of well regarded single pivot bikes that have very little complaint about brake jack. GG Megatrail comes to mind.
 
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Mikie said:
My last endo was because my 26 inch wheel went into a 27 inch hole of rock on a trail named car wreck. I then proceeded to go over the bars land with my leg through my forward triangle and ended sitting on my rear rotor with my bell rung, and saying, "Do you guys smell something burning?"

I have witnesses.
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What a coincidence that you brought this up today. I referred to this crash in the ride report I just wrote, and hadn't yet read this. Whoa - coincidence or irony?
 
I've owned many bikes with a variety of suspension designs and at times had three different designs in the garage at the same time (as many of you probably have). I've not objectively measured the performance of each design in any way. That said, short link bikes, particularly DW, perceptually *feel* more efficient to me. Even compared to bikes equipped with Brain or RE:Aktiv, DW *feels* significantly better on flats and climbing. Again, it has been my experience that it's easier to get a single pivot or Horst or the like to feel good descending and those seem to tolerate mis-adjustments of the shock better and feel plusher over a broader range of settings. I strongly prefer a short-link design (VPP, CVA, Maestro or DW) over other designs and the latest short link designs coupled with the current shocks make for beautifully balanced performers and work best of all the designs for those that like to peddle to the top. I rank the latest DW (I think it's 5th generation) at the top and VPP3 (current SC) close. All of them can be made to work beautifully and I'd ride any of them in a heartbeat just to be on the bike! [flame on]
 
"I've not had a bike that stops as well as a split pivot. Rough terrain, loose, loamy, under load, or any circumstance the rear tire makes constant positive contact with the surface without pedal kickback."

This is his opinion, which is 100% true to his experience. Why argue that?
 
dustyyoungblood said:
More like an ego problem then being more educated than everyone. Good lord.
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I know Dan VERY well. Trust me, it's not an ego problem.:thumbsup: Dan is data driven. I have ridden with Dan many times, found him to be a guy of upstanding character, and extremely humble and have asked him to write several technical articles for the products review site.

Edit Note: Just sometimes misunderstood.
 
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All,
Where do you rank the Yeti "Switch" Technology in all of this? I'm hankering to demo the new Yeti SB5+ now that @UPSed has polluted my mind and I can now not get it out of my head...:eek:o_O:rolleyes::whistling:
2017_YetiCycles_SB5_Plus_TS_Blk_X01_Eagle-mobile@2x.jpg
 
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While I deeply respect and value Dan's (AKA Varaxis) insights, I am also not one to kowtow or rubber stamp everything he says. Especially when he states the following...

Varaxis said:
Once you think about it, it should be clear that suspension linkage design doesn't rank very high on the list of "must-have" things. I presume that average people sweat it, because all the nicest bikes seem to have the same stuff bolted onto them, leaving only the frame and suspension design to be the difference (besides the riders themselves). That and I guess that they enjoy casually discussing how they believe such mysteries work...
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Nearly every wheeled transport mode uses some type of suspension. Hard tail, FS, and yes even road bikes through use of proprietary carbon layup or varying material sizes and properties (using titanium for example).

At the core, suspensions are the method to place the most amount of grip to the road. Those without swingarms and dampners do it with tire pressures, tread patterns, body movement, etc. But because bike carry so little weight (20-35lbs) in comparison to the speeds they move, suspension is a needed component that lets you brake later, carry more speed, and turn faster. That is why people obsess over rim width, travel lengths, and to a lesser extend kashima coatings.

This is why people are OCD on the latest bike geometry and suspension, not because the greater community falls victim to marketing hype, but because we all want the best performing bike for the pure enjoyment of technical trails, speed, and most of all NOT GETTING HURT by endo, under steer, over steer, etc.

Why am I taking this position? Because braking performance is directly linked to bike performance, and if the tires aren't on the ground, your not going to stop.... period.
 
Torrent77 said:
While I deeply respect and value Dan's (AKA Varaxis) insights, I am also not one to kowtow or rubber stamp everything he says. Especially when he states the following...



Nearly every wheeled transport mode uses some type of suspension. Hard tail, FS, and yes even road bikes through use of proprietary carbon layup or varying material sizes and properties (using titanium for example).

At the core, suspensions are the method to place the most amount of grip to the road. Those without swingarms and dampners do it with tire pressures, tread patterns, body movement, etc. But because bike carry so little weight (20-35lbs) in comparison to the speeds they move, suspension is a needed component that lets you brake later, carry more speed, and turn faster. That is why people obsess over rim width, travel lengths, and to a lesser extend kashima coatings.

This is why people are OCD on the latest bike geometry and suspension, not because the greater community falls victim to marketing hype, but because we all want the best performing bike for the pure enjoyment of technical trails, speed, and most of all NOT GETTING HURT by endo, under steer, over steer, etc.

Why am I taking this position? Because braking performance is directly linked to bike performance, and if the tires aren't on the ground, your not going to stop.... period.
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I believe it comes down to technique. Granted some suspension designs may do a better job at it than others....all can be ridden equally as fast/efficient under the right pilot.
 
mtnbikej said:
Ummmm, yeah. http://www.imtbtrails.com/forum/threads/my-2012-yeti-asr5c-is-broke.2673/#post-20518 :rolleyes: :eek: :D

Just because the pro's are running these things without trouble doesn't mean that we everyday Joe's will be able to do the same. We all don't have a mechanic in the pit to tear our bike down and rebuild it in between each ride..
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OHHhhhhh, are we going to pull imtbtrails ammo out? Uhhh, you know THAT will not go well for you since you pulled up the ONLY time my bike has been broke...;););)
 
This topic went south... arrrgggh.

A few things to try and reign this back to the OP intent, a basic broad stroke analysis of whether the only real advantage on some multi pivot systems might be "Hard braking in rough terrain"

1. MTB companies are liers and MOST of the suspension claims are false
2. There are VERY REAL advantages that riders FEEL that lend credit to the suspension design.
3. Tires and wheel are completely underrated and contribute more to ride performance than most people think.
4. Body position is very important for each different FS bike you ride. This is real and true that the kinematics of one suspension design requires or is affected by body weight shifts differently.

And a load cell wont tell me Sh!t about the ability of the rear wheel to roll under hard braking of nasty bumps.
 
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dustyyoungblood said:
This topic went south... arrrgggh.
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Not necessarily. Based on your 2nd post (#13) you clearly stated that you are only trying to convince yourself of a bike choice. I know this is going to come out simplistic as all hail, but when I was making a tire choice, @herzalot made a statement regarding privateer pros that had to buy their tires, were "buying" Maxxis DHF and DHRII's... That resonated with me. I tried them and have not tried another tire since. Once again, herzalot dropped pro info on yah:

herzalot said:
Whatever this is, it was under the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place finishers in the 2016 UCI World Championships DH in Andorra.

View attachment 22918

Looks like a mini-link such as Maestro/DW/VPP entirely separating the rear triangle from the front. Certainly not a linkage-driven single pivot.

Here's what Mondraker says. It sounds very impressive to me.

Zero is a dual link design with the shock floating between the two suspension links and compressed from both ends. This makes the rear suspension extremely sensitive on small bumps and big hit capable.

Zero superior technologies’ main advantages are Zero power loss -a completely stable ride when pedaling-, Zero pedal kickback-minimum chain growth throughout the suspension travel-, Zero brake jack –isolated braking and suspension forces- and what we call Zero bumps, its great ability to soak up any type of bump keeping the rear wheel efficiently planted on the ground.
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Meaning, you are looking for the panacea of rear suspension to meet your need and riding style. Seems you already have that figured out:
dustyyoungblood said:
My post is biased. My motive is trying to talk myself into a Foes Mixer or Evil over a Santa Cruz hightower. My history being I liked the single pivot bikes I owned (Scott high octane 2005, Commencal 666 2010) and did not really like riding intense 6.6 vpp bike. I liked the giant riegn I owned in 2006. Also. But through all the demos and test rides and friends bikes I have ridden the single pivots feel good.
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I'm not smart enough to ride and evaluate suspension systems and relay it here. I just ride bikes. I ride a single pivot and love it! Seriously looking at the Yeti SB series now. But I listen to those that will take the time and go to great lengths to share their investigation, perceptions, and knowledge. I fall back on the fact that you have definitely done your research, go with what you like! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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