Motorized Bicycles on Mount Hillyer

I would like to apologize for my WFC comment that was an emotional response. I understand that others are more passionate about this subject that I am.
I agree that there are hooligans in every aspect of life, education works with some and not others. The ones that are educated out of it are replaced with another that has come of age.
Something I have been working on in my life is understanding this. And accepting that are world evolves whether I like it or not.
My guess is at some point Mtn Bike's muscled there way onto the trails just like these E-bikes are doing at the moment. Hikers and Horseman didn't like it and some still don't.
Technology and humans ability to develop their bodies into what I would call machines have made bikes faster. This will happen with E-bikes also. The moment they were invented was the moment the ball started rolling. Along with most other popular ideas in our history they will either run there course or assimilate into our world.
I am no wordsmith like others on here(Mike being the 1st that comes to mind) but I hope this helps others understand my point of view.
Don't let the sight of a E-bikes or any other thing in life that bothers you ruin you day. Life goes by in a flash. Fight the fight that makes sense.
 
dstepper said:
I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.
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I know the wagons are going to circle on this for years to come, and you are not going to find anyone here that has more respect for the "The Stepper" than I do. Mountain Bikers are not introducing E-Bikes to the trails, manufacturers are. Mountain bikers as well are not turning on each other, a new product has been introduced drivin' by sales that is trying to blend motorized vehicles into the mountain bike community. They are motor driven bicycles, that look like mountain bikes.
Everyone "for them" seems to forget that very important point. Why is that????

We are each driven by our own personal agenda seeing only our viewpoint. I get that.

The question all of us should be asking is How is this going to affect Mountain Biking in America?
Launching a ballistic missile and then saying, "Whoops! My mistake!" is a bad strategy! Do we have a ballistic missile on our hands? I don't know...

Has anyone heard any noise what so ever out of the Sierra Club? The Equestrian Groups? Any opposing trail user group that have the money and power to make our lives miserable? Have they voiced their perspective?

As far as a user group turning on each other? I don't see it. I see it as a user group conflicted by new technology and some are pro for personal reasons and others are cautious for the bigger picture.
 
Mikie said:
My suggestion? If you come across someone on an E-Bike suiting up for a ride on non motorized trails, politely tell them that they would be violating current laws by riding those trails. If they insist, take pics or GoPro them heading out and pic or vid their license plate and turn it in to the Rangers. My GoPro is mounted on the back of my bike every ride nowadays. We don't have to be nasty, but we want them to know that we are serious about trail advocacy and that they blur the line for future consequences.
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I'm concerned about the mass production of Ebikes because of the perception that they're OK for use by non-disabled riders on non-motorized trails, and the ultimate consequences of that regarding legal mountain bike access. I'm not opposed to them being used in truly legitimate situations such as Wheezy's respiratory condition, as long as their advantages are not abused. That means bike shops don't issue or facilitate bogus disability cards to non-disabled individuals, or misrepresent the legal restrictions concerning their use. Also, maybe disabled individuals riding Ebikes should be required to display a placard on their handlebars in order to reduce confusion. I'd be happy to know that legitimately disabled riders could enjoy the trails I work on.

I found this on the OC Parks website:
"2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public entity that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual’s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance´s requirements for disability placards or cards."
 
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There is something that fundamentally rubs me raw about posting pictures of people out recreating when you did not see them doing actual 'wrong.' Violating a statute, sure... but you don't mention them skidding or burning out, whizzing by horses, etc. This whole running to daddy (calling authorities) and yelling "they weren't following the rules!" doesn't really help anyone. Complaints from cyclists or anyone else will just register as more negative data points on the "wheeled vehicle" side of trail recreation for forest authorities.

Unless you see someone damaging the trail or putting someone else at risk, the risk and damage associated with ebikes is informed conjecture, and why be a dick, really. There seems to be the same "they're not like us" primitive thought process that's at the root of so many other ills in the world.
 
Imp said:
There is something that fundamentally rubs me raw about posting pictures of people out recreating when you did not see them doing actual 'wrong.' Violating a statute, sure... but you don't mention them skidding or burning out, whizzing by horses, etc. This whole running to daddy (calling authorities) and yelling "they weren't following the rules!" doesn't really help anyone. Complaints from cyclists or anyone else will just register as more negative data points on the "wheeled vehicle" side of trail recreation for forest authorities.

Unless you see someone damaging the trail or putting someone else at risk, the risk and damage associated with ebikes is informed conjecture, and why be a dick, really. There seems to be the same "they're not like us" primitive thought process that's at the root of so many other ills in the world.
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Do you think they should be riding a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail? They were told they were not suppose to and then did it anyway.
Do they have to be skidding or burning out before the law is broken? Why is it that you and others do not see the potential consequences for this situation?
What would you rather have happen, Sierra Club hikers turn them in or us police ourselves? Shouldn't we handle this at the lowest level possible before it becomes a town hall issue?

If not that, then what. You are offering no solutions, just an opinion. What should we do amigo? Nothing?
 
evdog said:
Sorry but that is wrong. That new CA law changed the classification to allow electric bikes to be ridden on paved bike paths and bike lanes. It does not apply to singletrack trails in city, county, or state parks and preserves. Access to those trails is dictated by the individual land manager rules.
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Did you read AB-1096? Why are there three classifications for the "same" thing. The law was WRITTEN by the manufacturers with the intent that Class 1 electric bicycles with pedal assist (PAS) only, 750w maximum and 20 mph assist maximum could be ridden on trails. Why do you think manufacturers are coming out with numerous e-MTB's (Haibike, for example, brought in 40 or so different models for 2016) that satisfy Class 1 requirements? If my interpretation is wrong, fine with me, but I don't think so.
 
fos'l said:
By the way, this is BS about us policing ourselves. We police ourselves when the situation is favorable. Everyone knows about groups that ride where they're not suppose to, but nobody does anything about it. However, if you catch an 80 year old person out on an e-bike, there will be holy hell to pay.
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What's your solution?
 
slomosapien said:
I would like to apologize for my WFC comment that was an emotional response. I understand that others are more passionate about this subject that I am.
I agree that there are hooligans in every aspect of life, education works with some and not others. The ones that are educated out of it are replaced with another that has come of age.
Something I have been working on in my life is understanding this. And accepting that are world evolves whether I like it or not.
My guess is at some point Mtn Bike's muscled there way onto the trails just like these E-bikes are doing at the moment. Hikers and Horseman didn't like it and some still don't.
Technology and humans ability to develop their bodies into what I would call machines have made bikes faster. This will happen with E-bikes also. The moment they were invented was the moment the ball started rolling. Along with most other popular ideas in our history they will either run there course or assimilate into our world.
I am no wordsmith like others on here(Mike being the 1st that comes to mind) but I hope this helps others understand my point of view.
Don't let the sight of a E-bikes or any other thing in life that bothers you ruin you day. Life goes by in a flash. Fight the fight that makes sense.
Click to expand...

Well said "word smith", the river flows, I totally agree with this. Most of us if not all of us are in, or rapidly approaching our golden years, those of us who are, can spend those last years fighting the good fight against the suenami of change we face in this day in age. For me that would be taking away my precious time, not to mention put more unnessiasary stress in my life which is the root of evil health problems. I'll be staying the course of what works for me, that is pedaling and bombing dirt RIGHT NOW, my age group was very very lucky, I did join the military, but did not have to fight in any war, but I sure would have. Again timing has been good, my energy is spent still contibuting and pedaling, I'm leaving it for my kids to fight the fight, wait, there to lazy, what would I be fighting for anyway? There mountian bike future? Maybe there is still hope? Us old guys have the passion, throw the dice and bet that our kids will pick up where we left off (for mountain biking, that is what we are talking about)I freek on this title wave of change, I can only do my best to somehow keep up with it! It is going to depend on what the companys put in the herds troughs. Does the new "man"out there have any fight?
 
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Mikie said:
Do you think they should be riding a motorized vehicle on a non motorized trail?
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There is a gradient of antisocial behavior. At one end is someone driving a diesel through untracked wilderness, at the other end is someone riding a bicycle on an unsigned trail, as I occasionally do. I also speed on the freeway, but it's not a slippery slope to vehicular manslaughter. I don't know what wattage their e-bikes are, but my inclination is that it probably damages the trail less than horses, and those people do not look like they'll be riding downhill nearly as fast as a real cyclist would, legally.

Mikie said:
They were told they were not suppose to and then did it anyway
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Told by whom? I didn't get the details here. Doesn't really change my argument.

Mikie said:
Do they have to be skidding or burning out before the law is broken?
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See my first opinion above.

Mikie said:
Why is it that you and others do not see the potential consequences for this situation?
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Eh this is a little strawman here, I specifically described the potential consequences as "informed conjecture." That means they have a reasonable basis, but are not confirmed. I think there was a reasonable basis to assume mountain bikers would tear up trails when they started legislating in the 80's, but after x number of studies it's not really the case.

Mikie said:
What would you rather have happen, Sierra Club hikers turn them in or us police ourselves? Shouldn't we handle this at the lowest level possible before it becomes a town hall issue?
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I think it's the same thing, except that anyone turning them in is contributing to the total of grand offenders. I absolutely think we should police ourselves, but to me that does not involve the actual police. Let's be realistic too, unless we are on ebikes, we are not policing ourselves, we are policing a different trail user group. I can tell someone on a bike not to skid down a trail, but telling someone on an ebike not to exist isn't the same thing.

Mikie said:
What should we do amigo? Nothing?
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The main point is that I resent involving authorities when no one's person or property are in danger.

I guess if you really have to do something about it, what the original poster did is fine, when you account for the blurred faces. I wouldn't have bothered though, because the e-bike apocalypse has not overrun us yet, I'm not 100% convinced it will ruin it for everyone, and there is not enough time in the day to hassle people incapable of getting anywhere under their own power.
 
I think the bigger question here is, if you have an e-bike, what's better platforms or clipless? Oh, and what wheelsize should it be, 27.5" or 29"? :)

I'm kind of on the fence on this one, but more towards the let people do what they want to do as long as they are not damaging the trails camp. I like Slomo spent most of my life riding and racing dirtbikes. I just sold my last dirt bike less than a year ago. I've watched several riding areas go away in that time no matter what we did. The groups that don't like moto's are always not going to like motos. Work with them, work against them, the result is always the same. They took trails from us in the middle of the desert that never see any use other than OHV. I see the same with the e-bikes. The Sierra club will always despise mtn bikes, with or without e-bikes on the trails. As a supporter of multi-use trails, it's hard for me to ban someone else that wants to use that trail just because I don't want them there. If e-bikes become more popular, we will probably have to adapt just as we have with mtn biking becoming more popular. I was riding mtn bikes in Orange County since the mid-nineties. Back then, hikers outnumbered bikers easily. That's not the case anymore. Now at most of the parks there are hiking only trails and multi use trails so everyone can get outside and get their recreation in. I guess my point is, there has to be a compromise and an equitable solution. If we as mtn bikers blatently want to ban the e-bikes because of whatever reason, we start to sound just like the hikers and equestrians that want to ban us with no compromise.
 
dstepper said:
E-bikes on Mt Hiller! A road that sees maybe, at the most, a dozen bikes a week if that. I am not understand the hate towards e-bikes.
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The area of Mt Hillyer in question is a trail, not a road.

Imp said:
There is something that fundamentally rubs me raw about posting pictures of people out recreating when you did not see them doing actual 'wrong.'
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The topic of the thread is the act, not the people. The act is wrong.

Imp said:
Told by whom?
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OP
 
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fos'l said:
Enjoy the outdoors while I can, be polite to everyone, let those who are hired to enforce the rules do it.
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Bob, that's a great non involved, no action, no solution plan for yourself.
Not beating on you Sir.... just an observation...
We have left our Country's direction to worthless politicians for decades and look where it has got us. Relying on those "hired to enforce the rules" like the Sierra Club who has dictated through lots of money and court actions has grabbed more and more and more outdoors that you and I CAN'T enjoy anymore. No action is not an action plan. That tends to be the plan a lot of groups such as ourselves have done for years, and look what it has got us? Close our eyes and hope it goes away.
Brother, people are out there fighting the good fight for you and I "daily" to hang on to our trail rights. I look at what Steve Messer does with CORBA on a regular basis and all I can do is thank him every time I see him and participate where I can.

I know reading text can seem harsh when it's missing the tonal inflections to share sincerity. But apparently, you still have enough slice of the pie in your world to make you happy for now, but your solution is not a solution. It's another Kumbaya...:)
 
By the way, I've probably done more trail work, attended more meetings and in general did what was possible to further MTB acceptance more than most (but not all) of the "entitled" riders. Your "observation", which to me is a direct affront, is worthless.
I watched motorcyclists lose their territory and rights too, and it should be a cautionary tale. IMO, the different groups, road riders, desert racers, ....... were disparate when they should have coalesced. It was easy to pick them off one at a time. Same thing could occur eventually to bicyclists.
My original post was just to voice my opinion of the CA law on e-bikes, not get into an argument about trail access, and I've done that.
 
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Sidebar: Law enforcement – in Trabuco Ranger District at least – categorically appreciates the extra eyes and ears that legit users supply to help them manage the land. That's an opportunity to liaison with the powers that be, and to cast our group in the light of users that want to help, and who care about the regs the rangers are tasked with enforcing.
 
burt said:
The topic of the thread is the act, not the people. The act is wrong.OP
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Wrong, or illegal? Illegal, perhaps, but 'wrong' is subjective. I'm not saying actions don't have consequences, or that laws shouldn't be enforced. I do think there are instances where "zero tolerance" isn't nuanced enough, and I just don't see the threat these mild looking people pose to land or animal.

I should also say that I empathize though, and don't think you're being totally unreasonable. Shades of grey, always.
 
fos'l said:
By the way, I've probably done more trail work, attended more meetings and in general did what was possible to further MTB acceptance more than most (but not all) of the "entitled" riders. Your "observation", which to me is a direct affront, is worthless.
I watched motorcyclists lose their territory and rights too, and it should be a cautionary tale. IMO, the different groups, road riders, desert racers, ....... were disparate when they should have coalesced. It was easy to pick them off one at a time. Same thing could occur eventually to bicyclists.
My original post was just to voice my opinion of the CA law on e-bikes, not get into an argument about trail access, and I've done that.
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Not arguing with you, never was. "Debating", looking for solutions and trying to dig for facts and solutions is more like the exchange. Your statement of "Do nothing, then rest" for me was a useless retort and I had no idea about your advocacy background, just simply trying to put in to perspective what others are doing. The only time things change are when people change things. To do nothing and let others dictate our future is not an option.

What we really need to do is gather all the facts of intent and potential laws and what other user groups are planning to see how we move forward. Kinda my plan all along. But we should not be on the trails with E-Bikes until the plan is laid out.
 
Legal issues aside I would much rather have a responsible ebike user on the trails than an out-of-control DHer blasting down the trail at me. As others have said it's a tough one to call because we have all ridden in the "gray" area at one time or another.
 
I was just going to post...
I'm dropping out of this Presidential Debate.
I have aired my personal beliefs. I don't want anyone to ever think it's my way or the highway in regards to this Forum.
You Master Debaters drive on! :laugh:
 
fos'l said:
Did you read AB-1096? Why are there three classifications for the "same" thing. The law was WRITTEN by the manufacturers with the intent that Class 1 electric bicycles with pedal assist (PAS) only, 750w maximum and 20 mph assist maximum could be ridden on trails. Why do you think manufacturers are coming out with numerous e-MTB's (Haibike, for example, brought in 40 or so different models for 2016) that satisfy Class 1 requirements? If my interpretation is wrong, fine with me, but I don't think so.
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I have read it forwards and backwards as well as all the related propaganda. The wording is typical of any law, and it is NOT "cut and dry" and reads that Type 1 and Type 2 ebikes are legal EVERYWHERE that a regular bicycle is. UNLESS - Huge UNLESS - Local Authorities / Public agencies classify the SPECIFIC trail / path in question to prohibit them. So a lot of trails are in fact open to these bikes. If there is no sign at the trailhead with specific wording banning all ebikes, they are legal. The words "motorized vehicle" and "motorized bicycle" DO NOT APPLY to ebikes. The sign must specify "electric bicycle".

In regards to "what do we do, when we're 100% sure someone is riding illegally" - that's a tough one. I'd think having conversations is a great place to start. What's your name, where you from, ride here often, WHY the ebike, are you aware they aren't legal on this particular trail? I'd say, playing policeman is probably a bad idea though.

In my quick conversations with a ranger at el morro, it seems "local authorities and public agencies" are largely unaware of the changes that AB1096 has introduced or the labeling system that will become law Jan 1, 2017. Until then, there is some grey area.

You can bet yer ass, with all the money on the line, at least Type 1 bikes are going to get at least near full access.

https://calbike.org/wp-content/uploads/AB-1096-Info-for-Agencies.pdf
 
Wheezy, that's why I said it may get decided in the courts, not because I want it to happen, just that if someone THINKS they are riding legally and is jailed, fined, has their bike confiscated or some combination of those three, the courts may end up deciding the issue. Also agree with "J" that the consumer should be made aware of the current "conflict" before they make a purchase. Probably won't happen with bike shops having 44% more inventory coming out of winter this year than last.
 
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