Motorized Bicycles on Mount Hillyer

burt

burt

Member
Attached are snapshots from a video showing visibly and audibly, two cyclists driving electric powered vehicles on the multi-use Mount Hillyer trail in the Angeles National Forest. (34°20'28.84" N 118°00'59.97" W) 2016-04-23, ~3:20 pm. About 70 minutes prior, they were told motorized vehicles are not permitted on this trail. These photos are free of any licence or copyright.

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Until I start seeing damage from this type of bike, which as of right now I am not sure anyone here has seen other than your feelings are being hurt for some reason. WFC about an E Bike on the trail. I know it may be illegal, but we have all poached trails, most have had a few beers after a ride and drove home. Many of you speed on the freeway. Relax this is not the end of the world. Go out and ride your bikes and enjoy the world. People are always going to do things we don't like. Just adding to everyone else's .02
 
The nice thing about e-bikes (vs. pedal assist) is that you can always have your saddle too low - apparently.

The pixelation is to hide the shpit-eating grins they are sporting for having fun without much effort. I am just hoping they scared a bunch of hikers and equestrians while they were out there!
 
Well I was wrong again, no fatties there! Not that there is anything wrong with that! At least he is out there enjoying the day with his lady! My wife may someday get on and now I have to think twice about this matter. If that happens when I think about it, no more waiting on the climbs, she will wait for me instead, no worries, I'm used to that. Just reap the benefit of peddaling if you are blessed with the strength to do so, knowing it takes both the mind and the body. BTW, I drive 65 when I'm not pulling a trailer, and always 55 when pulling a trailer, and never would I swoop a lame driver up the 14 fwy. in the fast lane while pulling a trailer, not to mention would I ever ride the SOT! Oops I just looked in the mirror, maybe I should be spending the night in jail.
 
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slomosapien said:
Until I start seeing damage from this type of bike, which as of right now I am not sure anyone here has seen other than your feelings are being hurt for some reason. WFC about an E Bike on the trail.
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Who cares about Ebikes on non-motorized trails? That's a great question. Right now, we as mountain bikers have the incredible privilege of being allowed to ride trails in local parks, national forests and other types of publicly owned land. Motorcycles and other motorized vehicles are denied that right and their owners must often travel long distances to find legal places to ride.

If Ebikes become indistinguishable from non-motorized bicycles, and we aren't self-policing, it's not unimaginable that we'll all be lumped together and lose our privilege. The end result could mean tickets, fines, bikes confiscated and possible jail time. Mountain biking as we know it would be lost. This Ebike thing could end up being a virus that kills the host.

That's why it matters WFC's. They could be, or influence, the very people who currently allow us to ride the trails we love.
 
kioti said:
Who cares about Ebikes on non-motorized trails? That's a great question. Right now, we as mountain bikers have the incredible privilege of being allowed to ride trails in local parks, national forests and other types of publicly owned land. Motorcycles and other motorized vehicles are denied that right and their owners must often travel long distances to find legal places to ride.

If Ebikes become indistinguishable from non-motorized bicycles, and we aren't self-policing, it's not unimaginable that we'll all be lumped together and lose our privilege. The end result could mean tickets, fines, bikes confiscated and possible jail time. Mountain biking as we know it would be lost. This Ebike thing could end up being a virus that kills the host.

That's why it matters WFC's. They could be, or influence, the very people who currently allow us to ride the trails we love.
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I totally get your message, anyone can see where this could head, I'm not really torn between the two, I just know the river will find the sea. As always there are legit arguements for both sides. Every user group out there is undeniablly against bombing mountain bikers. There was a post earlier about the money being spent for Spec's E-bikes, I really think that the sport is headed for E-bike mountaian bike parks, meaning they may have finally found a place where they can put us to end the fight.
Humans will always find an easier way. Some people are gifted with God given talent and some are not, we have to except we are all created equal as to not deny someone from living a dignified life or denying them from having fun. In the begining man created a motorcycle, then came a quad, not much balance required there, hence easier, I used to shred a 650 jet ski back in the day they made them, riding in the ocean next to the beach , launching it up off the wave for 10 or fifteen ft. to dive it in. Then came seadoo's, even the name sounds BORING, jet ski's, what happened to them? The demand was for the easy!
 
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slomosapien said:
Until I start seeing damage from this type of bike, which as of right now I am not sure anyone here has seen other than your feelings are being hurt for some reason. WFC about an E Bike on the trail. I know it may be illegal, but we have all poached trails, most have had a few beers after a ride and drove home. Many of you speed on the freeway. Relax this is not the end of the world. Go out and ride your bikes and enjoy the world. People are always going to do things we don't like. Just adding to everyone else's .02
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JJ, you are on a Mountain Bike Forum with a pic of your Moto as your avatar.o_O I understand the possible aspect that you may not understand brother. For you, two wheels are two wheels. You've used that analogy more than once. It's all good. I used to be a hardcore Moto guy myself. But as a cyclist, seeing the land grabs and the venomous dislike towards cyclist on the trails. It's nothing to get relaxed about.

Certainly no offense to you and certainly nothing personal, but I feel the same way about E-Bikes on non motorized trails as I do Moto's. Many times now I have ridden Golden Eagle after a bunch of Jack Wad Moto's have ripped it to shreads! Cutting deep ruts, blowing out and terracing the corners. I can guarentee you I would clothesline a guy doing that to my hard work.
So based on that, can you see my perspective on Moto's? I hate them! :mad: How do you think a hiker feels about a 20 mile per hour mountain bike? They are going to hate them.

All this wishful Kumbaya is starting to make me nauseous. Heads in the sand, and individuals placing themselves before the greater good of our sport is the inner decay of everything that is good. We always try to make it more convenient and more easy.

This is not a good thing, it's not about trail decay, it's about pollution of our sport, the misperceptions of other trail groups, and the decay of 15+ years of effort towards trail advocacy. It makes me sad, and it makes me angry.
 
The Haibikes these individuals are riding satisfy the CA Class 1 standard signed and effective January 1, which classify them as "bicycles" AFAIK. Theoretically they are legal on city, county and state trails (obviously not the National one exhibited here) although the courts may end up deciding what Class 1 actually means.
 
kioti said:
Who cares about Ebikes on non-motorized trails? That's a great question. Right now, we as mountain bikers have the incredible privilege of being allowed to ride trails in local parks, national forests and other types of publicly owned land. Motorcycles and other motorized vehicles are denied that right and their owners must often travel long distances to find legal places to ride.

If Ebikes become indistinguishable from non-motorized bicycles, and we aren't self-policing, it's not unimaginable that we'll all be lumped together and lose our privilege. The end result could mean tickets, fines, bikes confiscated and possible jail time. Mountain biking as we know it would be lost. This Ebike thing could end up being a virus that kills the host.

That's why it matters WFC's. They could be, or influence, the very people who currently allow us to ride the trails we love.
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well said!
 
I have a feeling that most of the folks riding e-bikes do not understand how difficult it's been to get trail access approved for Mtb, or the possible threat their actions of riding a e-bike on non-motorized trails has toward that access. In their mind they most likely see a bike, a trail, and an opportunity to have some fun riding outdoors. Probably they either didn't consider riding trails before the e-bike, or less likely were not willing to put in the time and energy needed to get into shape to ride a real Mtb. Face it, the learning and fitness curve for real Mtb is long and hard.

What is most likely needed here is education and awareness. This will go a lot further than aggression and confrontation.

I do not like seeing the e-bikes on the trail. Mostly because of the threat to loss of access. But emotionally because the effort wasn't put into getting there.
How dare they have it easier than me! Totally unacceptable!

It is just a matter of time until the e-bikes have enough power to cause real damage to the trails we hold dear, and ruin all the hard work put in by volunteers to make them ridable and accessible. I hope that is not the case, but alas mark my words at some point it will be.
 
I'm neutral and don't poach; if it's legal, OK and if not, there are plenty of other places to ride e-bikes. Read Assembly Bill 1096; it redefines certain "motorized bicycles" as "electrical bicycles". Somewhat ambiguous, but the manufacturers drafted it with the intention of having Class 1 bicycles allowed on trails.
 
We never learn from history.
As mentioned before I was a Moto guy. Antelope Valley Fairgrounds, Indian Dunes, Edwards, Littlerock, Bishop, Mammoth were the hang out for the typical races we would attend.

I lived in Los Angeles County at the time with my parents way out in the sticks off Avenue I and 220th Street West. We built our own Moto-X tracks out in the middle of nowhere well away from any homes.

You can't do that anymore. In fact, you can't ride off-road vehicles off-road in LA County any more. You have to load your bike up and drive out to Hungry Valley Off Road Facility and ride their lame azz fire roads. You can't go to Bean Canyon, or ride the buttes on the South side of the Tehachapi. I was out in the desert riding one day and a sherriff's helicopter buzzed me and told me I was violating the law and to immediately desist.

Do you know who had Off-Road Motorcycles banished from LA County?
The Off-Road Motorcycle riders! They couldn't police themselves!
When we went to town hall meetings people would say things like we broke into their homes, ravaged their streets and road out of control on our off road access. We would respond F-U! Brilliant, huh? We lost the fight and were banned from Off-Road use. We never thought it possible they would actually ban us!

I moved from LA County to Kern County after that. I also quit riding Moto's in 1979.

Let's not repeat the same with Mountain Bikes. Let's keep a level head and do what's right for our sport. Let's also not think for a moment they won't ban us from the trails we hold dear...

1976 Honda Cr125 Elsinore
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Mikie said:
How is that possible Bob? They have a motor, right? Just like the freeway signs say, "Buzzed Driving is Drunk Driving".
Leave it to Special Interest Groups and politicians to be able to say a motorcycle is not a motorcycle...o_O:confused:
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Most of us-CYCLISTS- own multiple bikes. We spend big $$$ on accessories and equipment. We drive the industry. Our garages, living rooms, bedrooms are full of bikes and bike related "stuff."

I'm guessing an e-bike customer owns one e-bike and reluctantly buys a helmet and pads. That customer does not return multiple times to keep purchasing products from the company that produced their bike. That customer is probably not wearing the company's hats or putting the company's sticker on their car.

We need to let the bike companies (Specialized, Giant, BH, etc.) and bike dealers know that if they sell e-bikes they are going to have to give-up our $$$ and dedicate themselves exclusively to selling e-bikes.
 
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I understand your points, and am passionate about the hobbies I do. I ride my moto in designated riding areas. I guess you can hate me for that. The picture was taken at a race in Johnson Valley, half of which was taken away by our government to be used to blow things up. Not real happy about that. I fought for that land going to meetings, sending money and writing letters. I will do the same for the Mtn bike trails I ride, I do not believe an electric bike poses much more danger to our sport than the SOT some of us ride. I truly believe our population growth is our main enemy.
 
fos'l said:
The Haibikes these individuals are riding satisfy the CA Class 1 standard signed and effective January 1, which classify them as "bicycles" AFAIK. Theoretically they are legal on city, county and state trails (obviously not the National one exhibited here) although the courts may end up deciding what Class 1 actually means.
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Sorry but that is wrong. That new CA law changed the classification to allow electric bikes to be ridden on paved bike paths and bike lanes. It does not apply to singletrack trails in city, county, or state parks and preserves. Access to those trails is dictated by the individual land manager rules.
 
slomosapien said:
I understand your points, and am passionate about the hobbies I do. I ride my moto in designated riding areas. I guess you can hate me for that. The picture was taken at a race in Johnson Valley, half of which was taken away by our government to be used to blow things up. Not real happy about that. I fought for that land going to meetings, sending money and writing letters. I will do the same for the Mtn bike trails I ride, I do not believe an electric bike poses much more danger to our sport than the SOT some of us ride. I truly believe our population growth is our main enemy.
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For clarity; I'm not knocking OHVs and MX bikes on designated trails. I'm proposing we protect our own access to the multi-user trails (bike-horse-hike,) we've secured access to.
The only time I've had issues with mx bikes has been when they've barreled through a hiker only trail I was on with family and small kids.

With regard to the population issue; My gf is from Austin, TX and I like the idea of adopting one of their unofficial taglines: "Welcome to California, please don't move here."
 
slomosapien said:
I ride my moto in designated riding areas. I guess you can hate me for that.
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NEVAH! Never will I hate you! You would be missing my point if you thought that for riding where you are supposed to.
I was trying to make a point about the hooligans that "don't know what they don't know" about how much trail work mountain bikers put in to a trail and they ignorantly eradicate it like a hydrogen bomb in one fell swoop, and the perception it leaves behind. (<--This is my point...)
I honestly don't know if Moto guys go out and work on trails. I think EVERYBODY should donate some time to trail work. Hikers, Equestrian, Mountain Bikers and Moto's. I think it brings it full circle and certainly helps them to understand the tender balance our trail systems needs and requires. Plus it promotes community.

A lot of people here get out on a regular basis and give back to the trail system. How do we all think "they" would feel if we were banned from those trails. Perceptions. Perceptions can make us or break us. I'm not willing to risk that by allowing E-Bikes on our non motorized trail network.

My suggestion? If you come across someone on an E-Bike suiting up for a ride on non motorized trails, politely tell them that they would be violating current laws by riding those trails. If they insist, take pics or GoPro them heading out and pic or vid their license plate and turn it in to the Rangers. My GoPro is mounted on the back of my bike every ride nowadays. We don't have to be nasty, but we want them to know that we are serious about trail advocacy and that they blur the line for future consequences.
 
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Is there not a lot of cross over between the e-bike crowd and the MTBing. If one buys a e-bike are they only going to e-bike. I don't ride my fully rigid single speed on gravity days or take it lift assisted riding. I have a big bike for that. Broad statements and blanket policies do not do the argument justice. I am now 65 so my days getting into the back county pedal only powered is much more difficult than it used to be. I am conflicted about even thinking about buying a e-bike but I so want to continue some of the rides that have become to difficult for me due to medical issues. I am embarrassed about wanting a e-bike. For years I was the one gear only guy that disparaged geared riders. Times change people change, I have always been very polite on the trails, I don't see that changing what ever bike I am on. I have always looked at the futility of trail users turning on each other it never works out and the end result is everyone looses.

Dean
 
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