DangerDirtyD
iMTB Hooligan
I wish we got more intel on how the consultations go with the pros and how we can get an appointment with those surgeons. Mikie Watson and Jack Eichel: The saga continues... Good luck Mikie!
Looking for a riding partner in west la
- Thread starter adam l
- Start date
tick
Well-Known Member
Ask around, the folks at OSI in Orange have signed photos from the pros that they’ve worked on.
My wife was on the treadmill at SCAR, she thought she recognized the woman running next to her from PTA. But she just kept turning the speed up and up, my wife wasn’t keeping up, even though she was working up to her Ironman. Turns out this was the soccer mom:
You have to let the Dr know that you are willing to do real rehab. Surgeries like my Achilles reconstruction or clavicle involve a lot of risk, and if you’re just going to kick back and get fat anyway, having a bad ankle is a good excuse to just tell you to put your foot up until it feels better. The Dr needs to hear from you that you’re up for doing the work.
mtnbikej
J-Zilla
Sasquatch9billion
iMTB Rockstah
Danimal
iMTB Addict
I'm surprised they didn't ask for a signed J-Zilla strava printout for their wall.
AKAKTM
Well-Known Member
I'll be 'that guy.' I have an acoustic and love it. I also love the e-bike. I don't ride the e-bike as often, but do ride it from time to time. I went e-bike and I went back. I ride 'acoustic' more than 3:1 vs ebike according to my strava. Up here in the Santa Clarita area, bikes are allowed pretty much everywhere MTBs are. I realize it's different south of us. I never take my ebike to OC and rarely to other areas. I know nobody here wants to hear it, but it's great for trail work, exploring, off days after a couple of hard days on acoustic and it's pretty good to keep cooler on those 95 degree days when you just have to ride. I have no problem with those who don't want to ride ebikes and usually no problem with those who do (ok, most of the time I don't have a problem). As you can all see, I don't mind being the odd man out!
Flame retardant suit on!
Flame retardant suit on!
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Danimal
iMTB Addict
So "teach a man to fish"......
DangerDirtyD
iMTB Hooligan
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
Acoustic... guitar? I do everything possible to NOT make my bike acoustic
I think that you mean "analog" but that term, used by the e-bike crowd, is also completely incorrect, since e-bikes are not digital. I prefer the terms "bike" and "e-moped" since e-bikes have more in common with electric mopeds than real bikes (mopeds being two-wheeled vehicles with motors and pedal assist - hence the portmanteau of "motor" and "pedal"). I don't DOUBT that riding e-mopeds where e-mopeds aren't allowed is a lot of fun - just like I'd love to take my bike back onto wilderness trails where biking isn't allowed. But I'm not a dick.
The hate towards e-bikes on this site has NEVER been about e-bikes. It has been about riding e-bikes where they aren't allowed. If you want to race motocross, good for you. But don't take your motocross bike and ride up Joplin and expect me to be happy about it (even though dickish people do so regularly).
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AKAKTM
Well-Known Member
@BonsaiNut, for the record, this is all in good fun and I appreciate your retort and hope you appreciate my response.
First, I agree and prefer the term analog for my pedal bikes. Good call.
Second, are you sure about the source of dislike? You may want to reconsider it. eMTBs are allowed many places, but I see lots of people here who still seem to have a strong dislike. As I said, eMTBs are allowed on any moto trail, but are also allowed around SCV at Tapia, all SCV Open Space trails, Viper, and just about everything else. Over the past couple of years both the NPS and BLM have said that pedal assist e-bikes are to be considered the same as and regulated the same as bikes and shall have access to the same trails. USFS is in policy review now and will likely adopt the same policy as NPS and BLM this year. They have already adopted the policy on the enforcement side--in that the USFS does not enforce bike access and defacto allows them ahead of the likely policy change. If you are correct, then the hate will die down once ebikes are allowed on almost all trails. I do agree that the hate is likely to continue in OC and on some LA County trails assuming they continue to ban ebikes. How will your feelings change when they are allowed in most places?
Third, which two of these three are more similar or have more in common? As for me, it seems the bottom two have more in common. Are you saying the top two have more in common?
One final thing I find ironic is that often people who dislike ebikes go shuttle trails. I don't have a problem with shuttling though I don't much care for it myself, but I do find it ironic and inconsistent to be a frequent shuttler and be anti-ebike, but that's just my quirk.
Safe riding everyone!
Thanks Mike. Edited to remove the word 'hate' as I agree that it is overused and hopefully not appropriate for an issue like ebikes! We should reserve words like hate for truly evil things.
First, I agree and prefer the term analog for my pedal bikes. Good call.
Second, are you sure about the source of dislike? You may want to reconsider it. eMTBs are allowed many places, but I see lots of people here who still seem to have a strong dislike. As I said, eMTBs are allowed on any moto trail, but are also allowed around SCV at Tapia, all SCV Open Space trails, Viper, and just about everything else. Over the past couple of years both the NPS and BLM have said that pedal assist e-bikes are to be considered the same as and regulated the same as bikes and shall have access to the same trails. USFS is in policy review now and will likely adopt the same policy as NPS and BLM this year. They have already adopted the policy on the enforcement side--in that the USFS does not enforce bike access and defacto allows them ahead of the likely policy change. If you are correct, then the hate will die down once ebikes are allowed on almost all trails. I do agree that the hate is likely to continue in OC and on some LA County trails assuming they continue to ban ebikes. How will your feelings change when they are allowed in most places?
Third, which two of these three are more similar or have more in common? As for me, it seems the bottom two have more in common. Are you saying the top two have more in common?
One final thing I find ironic is that often people who dislike ebikes go shuttle trails. I don't have a problem with shuttling though I don't much care for it myself, but I do find it ironic and inconsistent to be a frequent shuttler and be anti-ebike, but that's just my quirk.
Safe riding everyone!
Thanks Mike. Edited to remove the word 'hate' as I agree that it is overused and hopefully not appropriate for an issue like ebikes! We should reserve words like hate for truly evil things.
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mike
iMTB Hooligan
As a casual observer, I’d note that hate is somewhat hyperbolic language to use to describe feelings about motorized trail machines. For one, I don’t hate them; they just don’t interest me nor can I consider them bicycles.
At the risk of being hypercritical, how about we reserve hate for something worse than something we eschew? I know it’s a fashionable term in a casual sense, but that diminishes true hate, which is a sight worse than not digging motorized bikes.
If I’m wrong I’ll let SPLC know that they have a new hate group to add to the list: IMTBTrails
PS: As said well by Bonsai and J, it’s the behavior that can be objectionable. Ebikes themselves? A great alternative to auto travel and a great way for many to get out and exercise where they’re allowed.
At the risk of being hypercritical, how about we reserve hate for something worse than something we eschew? I know it’s a fashionable term in a casual sense, but that diminishes true hate, which is a sight worse than not digging motorized bikes.
If I’m wrong I’ll let SPLC know that they have a new hate group to add to the list: IMTBTrails
PS: As said well by Bonsai and J, it’s the behavior that can be objectionable. Ebikes themselves? A great alternative to auto travel and a great way for many to get out and exercise where they’re allowed.
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mtnbikej
J-Zilla
The problem is that people think because it says e-BIKE, they can go where ever bikes can go.....so yes, when you see those contraptions on the trails....you understand the disdain for them. And in OC, Ebikes are prohibited on just about all trails in county park, state parks, and forest trails....yet I was run off the trail yesterday by 2 different ebikers on a trail they aren't supposed to be on.
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
Though I am a long time SoCal resident, I now live in NC, where e-bikes are legal in the state parks. I see them on occasion, but because the riding is mostly 100 feet per mile single track through woods, there doesn't seem to be as much interest(?) I'm not kidding when I say that I saw more e-bikes in SoCal on trails where they weren't allowed, than e-bikes in NC on trails where they are
I also see mixed groups of riders where you might have two experienced riders and one other rider on an e-bike who is working on building endurance. Years ago my wife and I used to ride road bikes together. She just had knee replacement surgery and if I thought getting her an e-bike would get her on the trails with me, one would already be in the garage
I won't say that I will never ride an e-bike, but I hope the day is still years out. At 57, I am all about the cardio and the calories. Last week I burned 4400 calories riding trails. Toss in a little trail running, and I delay the inevitable aging process as much as possible. An e-bike is directly contrary to that objective (as long as I can ride a mountain bike). However if one of my biking buds bought an e-bike I'd still ride with him
Faust29
Moderator
For me it has always boiled down to one simple question... And it's the same question I interrupted a local world-class pro to ask. Granted, I was huffing and puffing, and barely able to speak, while she was cruising effortlessly and bombarding us with her resume and sales pitch. But the question I eventually managed was, "What gives you the right to ride it where it isn't allowed?" There are no trails I rode in the OC where they are legal. Zero trails. Most have signs indicating such. But yet, I've seen hundreds of them. Even local bike shop owners...
The most common response to my question is, "Oh, I didn't know it wasn't allowed here. Are you sure? My buddy told me the ranger's third cousin said..." Bull.
I used to work on modifying behavior for a living, so I tend to refer to what I know, and I know I don't hate the crowbar that the thief used to break into my car... It's an object.
Great... Now I'm taking part in a thread that I'll probably have to lock and I'll end up censoring myself. You guys are a bad influence.
The most common response to my question is, "Oh, I didn't know it wasn't allowed here. Are you sure? My buddy told me the ranger's third cousin said..." Bull.
I used to work on modifying behavior for a living, so I tend to refer to what I know, and I know I don't hate the crowbar that the thief used to break into my car... It's an object.
Great... Now I'm taking part in a thread that I'll probably have to lock and I'll end up censoring myself. You guys are a bad influence.
tick
Well-Known Member
No flames here. If it’s allowed, do what you like. I’ll only flame if you claim “it’s the same...” I’ve got zero tolerance for postmodern epistemology. Sometimes reality hurts your feelings. I won’t elaborate, but both sides of our current political divide have chosen to stake out radical positions based on objectively false claims intended to protect one or more person’s feelings. “An ebike is the same” is just a small example of the lies that are ripping society apart. So for me, this is much bigger than a motor on a bike.
so...now it’s time to lock the thread...
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
Great... Now I'm taking part in a thread that I'll probably have to lock and I'll end up censoring myself. You guys are a bad influence.
Sounds like someone needs an attitude adjustment...
Derkderkall
iMTB Rockstah
Soooooo... as someone pointed out.. many people say their issue with these machines is that people are using them where they are not supposed to be using them. Issues with access for everyone in jeopardy as a result and so on....
What gets often overlooked is ride reports about off menu trails..... like a certain wilderness section that runs through California. That surely doesn't improve relations with our Sierra Club friends....
So... I think the issue runs a bit deeper than what we say on the surface.
What gets often overlooked is ride reports about off menu trails..... like a certain wilderness section that runs through California. That surely doesn't improve relations with our Sierra Club friends....
So... I think the issue runs a bit deeper than what we say on the surface.
AKAKTM
Well-Known Member
That's a really interesting response and thought providing.
Have any of the people here who are upset about e-bikes using trails not authorized for e-bikes ever riding the SOT? In OC, the SOT is further out, but I know many up in northern LA have poached the SOT. Isn't being upset with e-bikes poaching unauthorized trails no worse than bikes poaching SOT?
I'll bet I'm not making any friends, so I'll say...asking for a friend.
Have any of the people here who are upset about e-bikes using trails not authorized for e-bikes ever riding the SOT? In OC, the SOT is further out, but I know many up in northern LA have poached the SOT. Isn't being upset with e-bikes poaching unauthorized trails no worse than bikes poaching SOT?
I'll bet I'm not making any friends, so I'll say...asking for a friend.
Faust29
Moderator
This line of reasoning comes up every time... "You break the rules, too!" My reasoning is that, yes, I have broken the rules. I have exceeded the speed limit in the county park, etc. You got me. Then I slow down, and I'm legal again. My simple presence on Rock-It is not a violation. How does an e-bike rider return to compliance?
My last post in here... Because much like the argument above, the next 6 have also been offered many times, and they eventually devolve to the point that it gets really ugly.
I'll keep watching the thread...
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SnakeCharmer
iMTB Hooligan
Isn't the Sierra Club are part of those who want to end mountain biking on trails in Cali?
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
Absolutely. In the Cleveland National Forest, just across the 74 from some of the most popular MTB trails in Orange County, is the San Mateo Canyon Wilderness. No bikes. I have ridden thousands of miles in Cleveland National Forest without poaching one inch of Wilderness Trails. I'm sure there are some bikers who have ridden back there - just like there are some bikers who ride closed trails after a fire. It would be pretty hypocritical of me to be down on e-bikes poaching trails... when I did the same thing. But because I was never over there, I didn't see it. However when you only ride trails where e-bikes are not allowed, and you see e-bikes all the time, it is hard not to get pissed off. I went from being silent, to politely pointing it out, to getting more and more confrontational - particularly when pointing out that they were not allowed on the trail was met with a bunch of f-bombs.
AKAKTM
Well-Known Member
Thanks everyone. Like it or not, I expect most areas will go the way of NPS, BLM and soon USFS in allowing certain classes of pedal-assist ebikes. I'm not advocating for it, but I do think it's coming. As I said, in SCV it's already there as it is in most other states.
Thanks everyone. I expect this should be the end of the topic unless someone has a question. I'll stop responding otherwise to avoid any irritation or inflammatory responses. I appreciate the discussion!
Thanks everyone. I expect this should be the end of the topic unless someone has a question. I'll stop responding otherwise to avoid any irritation or inflammatory responses. I appreciate the discussion!
BonsaiNut
iMTB Rockstah
So I just want to make a couple of points, and then I'll shut up. FWIW I enjoy the chance to have reasonable conversation around the topic without devolving into Internet trash-talking.
First, as far as NPS and BLM go, let's be honest. We're not talking trails, we're talking gravel roads and lumber truck trails. NPS has NEVER been about having back country mountain bike trails, so to say e-bikes are now allowed on all NPS trails that currently allow mountain bikes is a pretty low hurdle. And BLM is worse. It's kinda like saying e-bikes are now allowed on all mountain bike trails in Everglades National Park. Good luck with that. Just check to see where mountain bikes are allowed in Yellowstone National Park and it pretty much comes down to - if you can drive a car on it you can ride a mountain bike on it. (And honestly as a National Park fan I'm not sure I would have it any other way). So e-bikes are now allowed where you can take your Harley
I wouldn't use that as an example of "expanded trail access". But don't take my word for it - check it out as I have.Second, let's not kid ourselves about "certain classes". Do you really think our over-worked park rangers, who don't have enough time to fight fires, crime, and maintain the park environment, are going to spot check e-bikes to determine whether or not they fit a certain "class"? LOL! You should see some of the apologetic ranger emails we get where they explain they can't police trails even when they are 100% closed to e-bikes. If it looks like a bike, it will be allowed, even if it has been hacked and can go 2x the OEM speed limit. Do a Google search for "hack my e-bike" and see what you find. Top speed right now for commercial e-bikes is over 60 mph. Without showing you a picture of the bike, do you really expect rangers to be able to visually identify it, and have the ability to pull the person over and ticket them because they aren't using an approved "class"?
And that is why I feel e-bikes are really e-mopeds... or perhaps even e-motos. It is an electric end-run for people who really want to be able to ride motocross on park trails, but before the advent of battery motors their noise would give them away. The e-bike manufacturers like to show images of elderly people and giving handicapped people trail access... when the reality is 20-30 year old males with a need for speed. (Exaggerating for maximum impact! Because this is the Internet after all
)To be honest, as battery tech improves and gets cheaper, I have half a mind of hacking a Santa Cruz e-bike and taking it on a track to see how fast I can get it to go. I might get some press if I can get an e-bike to hit 100 mph. After all, I do live in the heart of NASCAR where some people might just view it as a fun project
Santa Cruz might not be too happy... but I think people are having the wrong conversation around e-bikes. Trust me... I own a Tesla that hits 60 in less than 3 seconds.
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AKAKTM
Well-Known Member
@BonsaiNut, given the good nature here and the fact that we will all need to figure out how to deal with this, I'll keep discussing in this format unless or until it degrades. I do appreciate the good conversation.
I agree on NPS, but there are areas with good back-country trails on BLM, though neither compare with USFS and USFS is in review now. I expect they will approve pedal-assist bikes this year and regulate them exactly like mountain bikes. I expect they will request groups like CAMTB to help them police it and I also agree that they will have a really challenging time doing so.
As for speed, I have seen moto-like models and e-motos that go 60mph. Those look pretty obvious and do not look like pedal assist mountain bikes. That said per your point above, it could be hard to regulate given that at least initially the USFS will not know the difference, but that would work out over time and with familiarity to some degree.
I am sure there are some who feel as you mention--that this is an end run way to ride moto on bike trails, but I think that's a small minority, at least in my experience. Most e-MTB riders I know are mountain bike riders who either want an easier way up (call it cheating if you like) or are super-fit racer types who wants break on some days and I know lots of superb mountain bikers, pro level, who ride e-MTBs sometimes for recovery or for something different or to keep cooler on an 100 degree day or just because it's fun. Some just want to practice descents more and pick this rather than shuttling since they can get 2x to 3x as much descent in a given time.
Finally, the Santa Cruz and Specialized bikes, even hacked, don't have that much power. I've ridden a few hacked ones and on flat ground it's really hard to get them much beyond 28 to 30mph. Yea, that's fast, but not 60. And as soon as an uphill comes along, speeds drop a lot. There's only so much you can do with about 1hp. To get to the 60+ speeds most bikes use much larger batteries and much larger and more capable motors.
AS I said earlier on, I enjoy my e-MTB, but not as much as my analog bike so I ride the analog more. I am also fortunate that we have lots of legal e-MTB trails up here in SCV. We will all be a part of what happens next. I expect to see more e-MTBS and to see USFS allow them on bike trails and if that happens, we will all have to figure out how to deal with it and how to teach trail etiquette. As our sport grows, that will be one of our biggest challenges. We need to unify to advocate for more trails, more responsible use and broader access. Groups like CAMTB are here to do that. There certainly are powerful groups that want to eliminate our access in most areas. Being united and having great discussions that lead unity and to responsible action and internal policing seems to be the way to go to me.
I agree on NPS, but there are areas with good back-country trails on BLM, though neither compare with USFS and USFS is in review now. I expect they will approve pedal-assist bikes this year and regulate them exactly like mountain bikes. I expect they will request groups like CAMTB to help them police it and I also agree that they will have a really challenging time doing so.
As for speed, I have seen moto-like models and e-motos that go 60mph. Those look pretty obvious and do not look like pedal assist mountain bikes. That said per your point above, it could be hard to regulate given that at least initially the USFS will not know the difference, but that would work out over time and with familiarity to some degree.
I am sure there are some who feel as you mention--that this is an end run way to ride moto on bike trails, but I think that's a small minority, at least in my experience. Most e-MTB riders I know are mountain bike riders who either want an easier way up (call it cheating if you like) or are super-fit racer types who wants break on some days and I know lots of superb mountain bikers, pro level, who ride e-MTBs sometimes for recovery or for something different or to keep cooler on an 100 degree day or just because it's fun. Some just want to practice descents more and pick this rather than shuttling since they can get 2x to 3x as much descent in a given time.
Finally, the Santa Cruz and Specialized bikes, even hacked, don't have that much power. I've ridden a few hacked ones and on flat ground it's really hard to get them much beyond 28 to 30mph. Yea, that's fast, but not 60. And as soon as an uphill comes along, speeds drop a lot. There's only so much you can do with about 1hp. To get to the 60+ speeds most bikes use much larger batteries and much larger and more capable motors.
AS I said earlier on, I enjoy my e-MTB, but not as much as my analog bike so I ride the analog more. I am also fortunate that we have lots of legal e-MTB trails up here in SCV. We will all be a part of what happens next. I expect to see more e-MTBS and to see USFS allow them on bike trails and if that happens, we will all have to figure out how to deal with it and how to teach trail etiquette. As our sport grows, that will be one of our biggest challenges. We need to unify to advocate for more trails, more responsible use and broader access. Groups like CAMTB are here to do that. There certainly are powerful groups that want to eliminate our access in most areas. Being united and having great discussions that lead unity and to responsible action and internal policing seems to be the way to go to me.
DangerDirtyD
iMTB Hooligan
I say there be tryouts and the slow pokes find another hobby.
Danimal
iMTB Addict
I know, poor guy was hit in the face with a Pie just for saying HI I want to ride with someone.
What you guys should really look at is the mirror for the reason why there are so many divides in society today. I was simply looking for someone to go riding with. After going going through a difficult period and rehabbing looking to finally have fun again. This board has turned it into a divide of us against them. I would be interested to hear any of your opinions after you go through back surgery and recover enough to ride an ebike or any bike…let alone walk again without pain. Once you have gone through that let me know what you think. In the mean time try to understand that people have experiences different than yours and that is ok. The more you try to understand people the better off we will all be. Clearly this is not the group I should be trying to connect with unfortunately as I do believe we all enjoy a lot of the same things. Good luck to everyone!
Runs with Scissors
iMTB Hooligan
And to be brutally honest, folks, the above reaction is why this site isn't going to exist for the long term. I'm not a fan of e-bikes either; I don't like that people ignore the rules regarding them but I'm much more disgusted by unleashed dogs on trails (after all, they have teeth and get startled, with predictable results). They're not going away.
You can shun those who use them, and narrow the membership in your tribe, or you can educate and increase membership in a responsible manner. The immediate exclusion of anyone who shows up here with an e-bike will be the death of this place.
Carry on.