LCWP TnA Trail

[herzalot]

I tend to totally agree with this. We love the idea of friendly multi use trails, but lets face some facts, nobody wants their 8 year old running around on a hike with his parents as a mountain bike bombing the trail. Smart segregation in highly congestive areas only makes sense.

Separate - but equal trails. We could bus people to the trails they are allowed to enjoy! Do mt. bikers count as 3/5 of a hiker, legislatively?

Oh wait, busing was for de-segregation.

The more rules you have in a park, the more violators you have, the more enforcement you need to provide. Then more entitlement, and anger. Let's just not be pricks on the trail, mmkay? (Says the man who nearly knocked down a hiker with a cane last weekend because said biker didn't want to disrupt his own flow ).

 

[kioti]

Separate - but equal trails. We could bus people to the trails they are allowed to enjoy! Do mt. bikers count as 3/5 of a hiker, legislatively?

Oh wait, busing was for de-segregation.

The more rules you have in a park, the more violators you have, the more enforcement you need to provide. Then more entitlement, and anger. Let's just not be pricks on the trail, mmkay? (Says the man who nearly knocked down a hiker with a cane last weekend because said biker didn't want to disrupt his own flow ).

I agree with Chris on this. I rode Aliso this evening and saw at least two "hiker only" trails. That gives hikers a chance to go where we can't if they need the solitude. There's also "hiker only" James Dilley Preserve across from LCWP. Those of us on multi-use trails know the deal, and it gives us most of the trails to enjoy. We just need to be aware and respect other users. Not a bad concept for our populous county.

 

[herzalot]

I did a recon run today to see firsthand what I have only seen in pictures or heard about.

About T and A. The re-route is a fun little trail and the bulk of riders and hikers would have made that their #1 option, if the option still existed. The utter destruction of the top is still inexcusable and should have been left as an "experts only" line. Looking at the churned up mayhem, I still think it's possible to bed in a trail down it.

The bottom is still chunky good time, but I am sure someone will want to dumb that down too.

Speaking of which, the dumbing down of Stair Steps trail has begun.

Here is a line that someone built to make it easier, and next to it is the line that I rode. There used to be a couple of line choices, but they were all rocky and challenging. Now there's a sissi-fied gentle path option. I am guessing that someone has similar designs for the chunky waterfall section of that trail, as well as Car Wreck and maybe more. There is already a much gentler ride around trail to skip the Stair Steps (waterfall) part of Stair Steps. I have a nagging feeling that somebody wants that to be the only trail and wants to destroy the waterfall section. I hope not, but the way things are going, it would not surprise me.

I guess if they don't destroy the tougher line, there's nothing wrong with having two choices, but LCF and OC Parks are unhappy about wide trails, so I am guessing someone would like to destroy the challenging line.

 

[Faust29]

That is sad... Completely expected, but still sad.

I've only been up and down it a few times, and it killed my frame, but that is sad. Will they bring in the backhoe to get rid of the rocks when that new line is done?

 

[herzalot]

That is sad... Completely expected, but still sad.

I've only been up and down it a few times, and it killed my frame, but that is sad. Will they bring in the backhoe to get rid of the rocks when that new line is done?

I just sent an e-mail to Hallie Jones of LCF to ask that very question. It looks like the intentional destruction of the challenging legal trails in Laguna is well underway. I hope I am wrong, but I've lived here for 15 years. For 14 of those years, the trails have pretty much been left alone. This past year, the re-routing via gentle trail and the destruction of challenging sections has begun in earnest.

 

[StrandLeper]

That is sad... Completely expected, but still sad.

I've only been up and down it a few times, and it killed my frame, but that is sad. Will they bring in the backhoe to get rid of the rocks when that new line is done?

Not if I have anything to do with it.

I received the balance of the documents and the plan is to dumb down early every trail because they are "unsustainable." I know some of the people involved and just don't understand it.

Like I usually say when I am about to look into an issue like this, "It's a good thing that I have enough friends in town, cuz I am not likely going to be making any more."

I will have my secretary batch then into different categories and load them separately. The files are too massive. I couldn't even compress them enough to post them.

I will be relaxing in Half Moon Bay next week and now have some light reading to do. Then some planning. Then another FOIA regarding the legal structure of the park management.

 

[dustyyoungblood]

BTW, in my humble opinion the TNA reroute at top is completly 100% unsustainable bench cut trail on very fragile soil and resulted in lose of vegetation and rock harvesting for planted rock features. It's fun and made the trail longer and more accessible but complete and total bullshit they will be sorry they worked on.

 

[dustyyoungblood]

On another related note. The planted flat faced rock section on lizards is a death trap. The edges catch tires on the down side and the pointy planted pyramid rock will destroy someone's face. Natural rock terrain is much safer.

 

[herzalot]

Lizard is also getting wider.

The pavers on 5 Oaks are beginning to show their edges again. They're fine when buried flush, but once that edge gets exposed - danger!

Sustainability, they cry! Riiiigggghhhht.... Please note that the section I posted above is not very steep and clearly sustainability is not a factor. Neither is safety, since the new smooth line will encourage higher speeds.

 

[herzalot]

Update: LCF says the work was not theirs and not authorized by OC Parks. She maintains that sanitizing Stair Steps is not a high priority for OC Parks.

I will once again gain my composure, and not make a big deal out of a small section of trail as long as both lines remain. If someone dozes or blocks the chunky lines, I will realize that it's game on.

 

[bvader]

Yeah on Lizard's my advice to friends on those sections is A) Stay on top of and centered on the rocks B) Do NOT try to transition from dirt side to Said rocks C) Stay on top of and centered on the rocks

Oh I almost Forgot ... What the H3LL on Stair Steps!

 

[dustyyoungblood]

Yeah on Lizard's my advice to friends on those sections is A) Stay on top of and centered on the rocks B) Do NOT try to transition from dirt side to Said rocks C) Stay on top of and centered on the rocks

Oh I almost Forgot ... What the H3LL on Stair Steps!

That's exactly correct, you can't line up the exit properly without being at risk of a high side situation.

 

[MattB]

Update: LCF says the work was not theirs and not authorized by OC Parks. She maintains that sanitizing Stair Steps is not a high priority for OC Parks.

I will once again gain my composure, and not make a big deal out of a small section of trail as long as both lines remain. If someone dozes or blocks the chunky lines, I will realize that it's game on.

I'm going to give Hallie the benefit of the doubt based on our meeting with her (and others), so when I say "BS!!!!", what I really mean is that it seems LCF/TrailMix has a rogue trail builder who needs to be fired! They bragged about this trail work on Facebook! Apparently they are doing unauthorized work on our trails without the knowledge of LCF leadership or OC Parks permission. I suspect that this may be the same person who has caused conflicts in trail maintenance in the past, but that is just speculation on my part.

I suggest that anyone who is concerned about this start following Laguna TrailMix on Facebook so that you see all of this as soon as it happens since they have a habit of bragging about these "improvements". In fairness, they have also done a lot of good trail maintenance which I truly appreciate, but it is hard to look past the completely unnecessary dumbing down and/or destruction of trails that have stood the test of time for decades.

This is from the TrailMix Facebook page:

Here are some more pics from that Facebook entry, along with their commentary:

This last one includes a debate where they state their opinion about the need to dumb down the trail to keep it from getting wider. This is more BS. I haven't seen that section of Stairsteps get wider in the years I've been riding it, since it had natural boundaries on each side that prevented it, including a tree that they chopped back to encourage people to take the easy side. Before, you either rode it or you walked it, but you couldn't make it wider.

 

[herzalot]

Shows you how long it's been since I rode Stair Steps. That work was done in late January, and Tim has already commented on their Facebook site.

IMO That section needed no work. The water that this guy is obsessed with (that happens 10x per year) flows down the middle just fine, leaving the rider with a choice, ride the challenging terrain or walk it. That section was not getting wider. In fact, it was getting narrower until someone cut back the vegetation to deliberately widen the right side, as well as cutting into the right bank. And I cringe at the sentence "we filled in that rock problem in the foreground."

 

[StrandLeper]

Update: LCF says the work was not theirs and not authorized by OC Parks. She maintains that sanitizing Stair Steps is not a high priority for OC Parks.

I will once again gain my composure, and not make a big deal out of a small section of trail as long as both lines remain. If someone dozes or blocks the chunky lines, I will realize that it's game on.

They claimed that exact stairsteps work in either an FB post or in my docs. I will find it. Never mind, Matt already caught it.

 

[MattB]

Here are some of the things I took away from tonight's trail forum meeting with LCF.

• They listened and heard our views that we don't want trails to be made easier, or all become flow trails
• We talked about TNA for a while, but there was nothing new said (other than an obnoxious LCF fanboy who couldn't praise them enough, LOVES the reroute, and responded to the loss of the challenging rock garden route with "You can double or triple the jumps on the reroute. Can YOU do that? There's your challenge." - completely missing that it's a completely different challenge and riding style, and not at all what we were talking about - okay, I had to get that off my chest)
• The Stairsteps p-line on the right was done because someone (not LCF) cut the branches back, so they tried to make the line sustainable now that the branches were no longer blocking it. They have no intention of doing anything to the rocky line on the left.
• Also, no plans to do anything to the waterfall section at the top of Stairsteps.
• They do not plan to make anymore changes to the upper section of 5 Oaks. I was concerned that they were working their way up from the bottom and might reroute or sanitize some of the upper sections, but that is not the case.
• Upcoming work on Car Wreck should be minor in just one or two spots, and shouldn't reduce the challenge or character of the trail.
  • They recently worked on Mentally Sensitive, and I was really happy with it. It was still challenging, just in good shape. I'll be happy if they take a similar approach to Car Wreck.
• They said that the pavers are a last resort after they have tried other options and that they are open to suggestions.
• We discussed my desire to focus on keeping trails more natural even if it means more maintenance, and that it would require us to rally more volunteers to make that happen.
  • This is something I think we can try to influence by getting out there and volunteering more to show that we can make it work.
  • I haven't volunteered with them before (I've stuck to Kioti, SHARE, & Non Dot trail maintenance) because I was concerned that I would be asked to do something that I disagree with, but after tonight's meeting, I'm ready to give them a shot with my time. If I don't like it, I can always vote with my feet and leave, but I'll have first hand experience I can share with their leadership.

Overall, I was pleased with the meeting. Curious if anyone else there has anything to add or a different take.

 

[herzalot]

I too thought it was a good and important meeting, though I am a bit more apprehensive than my friend @MattB. I believe we accomplished the objective, to let the trail workers and management of LCF know that we do not want steep, techy trails destroyed. Hallie did a superb job of managing the interests and opinions. Mike was pretty convincing that they have no intention of tampering with the waterfall on Stairs (the "stairs" section), even going so far as calling it sustainable in its current state. He claims they have no desire to make the low gradient bypass into the main trail and eliminate the chunky part (as they did on T and A).

I'm not sure I am convinced that "someone" had cut back the branches on that section of stairs that was sanitized in January. As long as they don't try to eliminate the more challenging chunky line in favor of the smoother, straighter, easier line, I guess we live with it. Not a trend we want to see however.

The improvements Mike described for Car Wreck are in the low gradient sections and not the steeper bedrock sections. He also described some work that needs to be done near the car itself. I agree that some work there may be helpful.

They do not intend to lower the gradient of 5 Oaks. They do have plans to do something to save the tree at the bottom.

All in all, I'd say we chimed in, and that in itself will matter. No one in the room was screaming to eliminate mt. bikes, so that's a win right there!

Huge Thank You to Hallie for continuing to seek and value our opinion. Even mt. bikers disagree on what's fun, so I can't imagine how hard it is to try to please everyone!

Oh and thanks also to Gary (@sir crashalot ) Taylor (@tbarnesarc), Matt @MattB and Andy @Andy for being there!

 

[sir crashalot]

I thought the meeting was informative and positive. Hikers and bikers (and those who do both like myself) were in attendance and I did not get any "us vs them" vibe. I appreciated the oppurtunity to discuss the park trail management with Hallie, Mike, et al., ...Big thanks for all your efforts. It was interesting to hear from lcf's end how complicated their job is, trying to compromise between the wants of the different users and the many layers of jurisdiction . Matt I liked your comments about how a large part of the experience of the laguna trails is the natural feel and rugged state. I need to join in with some traiwork, if they ever do it on days im available...

 

[StrandLeper]

Guys, thanks SO much for going! I was sitting in traffic trying to escape from DT LA. Way to represent. Sounds like @MattB was articulate and thoughtful as always.

Not buying the stairs P-line story (cuz they bragged about it before we called them out) but it sounds like any plans that they may have had to alter stairs are now shelved.

Well done guys! I hope that I can make a future meeting.

 

[sir crashalot]

I also specifically asked if they were planning on any major smoothing out or rerouting the lower, rocky sections on tna, or the last rock garden (left line) on steps. With the possible exception of some work on the tna drop area, the reply was no.
Regarding the p-line thing on lower steps, it wasnt quite clear on FB exactly what was bragged about. the way Mike explained it was that he saw that someone chopped away the overhanging bush and made a right line. He predicted that many would now take that line, and if water flow wasnt managed around it it would rut out and the trail woyld get even wider there. so it was decided to keep both lines and work with that. I am kind of miffed that a few rocks were moved but i rode the left line the other day its still good.
I dont agree with everything thats been done or is planned, but I understand where theyre coming from and respect the time and efforts. It seems like they will keep our input in mind (hopefully Matt's comment about using a LIGHT touch) as much as they can moving forward. Remember, it is not (primarily) a bike park. but, like Mike said, mtbers now have a seat at the table. Of course its quite possible the plans originally were to smooth evrything out, but thats been changed in light of the public outcry(rage?). And thats fine! and the purpose of meeting with users to get our specific input on specific trails. Hallie even mentioned that at the time she didnt realize there would be such an outrage over the removal of the tna ridgeline, and that now she understands many riders' passion for that kind of challenge. it was mentioned, however, that lcf is primarily an advisory commitee to oc parks, sometimes the county will just put their foot down and direct certain work to be done.
The subject of using pavers was addressed. It was explained that Trail beds sometimes need to be armored in certain placed for sustinbility. The soil in these parks just doesnt hold up during the dry season under the half million! users per year. of course best option is natural rock but it was explained that the funds just arent quite there for that nor for the man hours of using erodable dirt instead.

 

[MattB]

Thanks, Gary. I think there's an important point we should focus on when we say "it's not (primarily) a bike park." While this is absolutely correct, and some members of the meeting may misconstrue our points as being all about mountain biking, I think our main focus (at least mine) regarding Laguna trails is that we want them left as natural as possible (while being maintainable). This is something that appeals to me as a mountain biker and a hiker. When I take my family hiking, the most fun and memorable trails are unique, natural, and frequently challenging. I think this focus on retaining the natural look, feel, and character of Laguna trails is consistent with the fact that these are "wilderness" parks, and has benefits for both hikers and mountain bikers.

There was one hiker in attendance who pointed out that the meeting seemed very focused on mountain biking and said something about Car Wreck not being fun to hike down, as an example. I spoke up in the meeting and pointed out that while I wouldn't want to hike down it, I have had fun hiking up it, and almost every time I ride down it I see hikers coming up. To me, this shows that there are plenty of hikers who also enjoy the challenging, natural trails of Laguna.

Regarding "armoring" with pavers, I had a good discussion with Alan after the meeting where he described the pavers on 5 Oaks as a last resort after they tried just using dirt and didn't hold on its own. He also mentioned being willing and interested in experimenting with other options if there are ideas (and the money and labor to support them - he mentioned soil additives, which could firm up soil in key spots that might otherwise require pavers - this sounds appealing to me). I don't think rock or any hardscape is always the answer as we have seen how some of the rock was used on Lizard and how that has fared as the dirt around the rocks erodes. There are no easy answers to this, especially with the soil on most of the Laguna trails, and it's not necessarily a black and white issue of using pavers or not. There will likely be some places where they are the best solution, the question will be where the line is drawn on how extensively they are used. My hope is that if we can show that we have enough volunteers to maintain trails more often, we could continue to use more dirt on the trails and less concrete.

 

[no worries]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but it's somewhat germane to the issue at hand. What do you all think about Camarillo? Now, this is not a 'natural' trail anymore, so it's definitely a different scenario. The rain damage has made it impassible for most (?) and I'm curious if you think it should be "modified" or not?

 

[sir crashalot]

Thanks Matt. I agree, I really appreciate the natural feel of the parks for both riding and hiking and really want lcwp/aliso to retain that. I've talked to hikers that we're bummed about the tna ridge removal, they'd rather hike up that steep rough pitch than the reroute.

 

[littlewave]

Sorry I missed this, just got in from NY and couldn't swing down there with the kids needing my attention. Thanks for speaking up for us mountain bikers!

 

[littlewave]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but it's somewhat germane to the issue at hand. What do you all think about Camarillo? Now, this is not a 'natural' trail anymore, so it's definitely a different scenario. The rain damage has made it impassible for most (?) and I'm curious if you think it should be "modified" or not?

It needs some maintenance love. Not sure it needs to be modified. But yes, I used to be able to clean it, can no longer clean it.

 

[knucklebuster]

Thanks Guys for attending and representing our viewpoint. There's always going to be some compromise with different perspectives and user groups, but involvement in the planning prior to the work will hopefully keeps things like the upper TnA destruction from happening.

Were LCWP trails (besides TnA) discussed? Seems one of the documents that Tim posted said both BVD and Old Emerald were to have reroute or armoring, and Lizard to be cleaned up/pavers re-set (guess the pavers aren't completely maintenance free). I'm still in the 'no concrete' camp and believe there is always another/better way, even if more work is involved.
Thanks again for those that attended

 

[bvader]

Not sure if this is the right thread, but it's somewhat germane to the issue at hand. What do you all think about Camarillo? Now, this is not a 'natural' trail anymore, so it's definitely a different scenario. The rain damage has made it impassible for most (?) and I'm curious if you think it should be "modified" or not?

It needs some maintenance love. Not sure it needs to be modified. But yes, I used to be able to clean it, can no longer clean it.

Hmmmm its much harder but cleanable with its odd chunks, sand, inconsistency etc and some modified lines... and its ripe for a couple nasty falls. Unfortunately there is a new cut-through / cheat line that peeps are using to clean it. It could use some love (kill the cheat line) on the other hand it requires full mode / juju to clean.. I'm good with that, so I am mixed and careful what we ask for.

 

[Ebruner]

Nothing wrong with camarillo ST imo. Totally cleanable for me on both my FS bike and my 29r HT. If it needs maintenance to stop erosion that's one thing, but no work needs to be done to that trail in the sake of ridable features.

 

[mtnbikej]

Nothing wrong with camarillo ST imo. Totally cleanable for me on both my FS bike and my 29r HT. If it needs maintenance to stop erosion that's one thing, but no work needs to be done to that trail in the sake of ridable features.

Exactly.....granted I haven't seen it since before xmas....so I don't know what kind of shape it's in these days. Part of the fun of that trail is that it has its tricky spots.

 

[no worries]

Exactly.....granted I haven't seen it since before xmas....so I don't know what kind of shape it's in these days. Part of the fun of that trail is that it has its tricky spots.

I could clean it prior to Xmas, though a few of my buddies could not. I LOVED the difficulty level. The heavy rain has eroded around the rocks and I definitely can't clean it now. Tried twice and failed pretty good (ouch my face). Just needs the dirt back around some of the rocks and pavers, imo, but then it'd be gone again next winter, right?