Humanity - ways in which people lose it

herzalot said:
Agreed. But re-read my post. I clarified a little. It's not nihilistic, anti-religious or pessimistic, it is an understanding that we aren't as important as we make ourselves out to be - and that's a healthy, humble attitude. Cancer, natural catastrophes, human atrocities and other circumstances will demonstrate that in a hurry. Live grateful.

Now where the hell is my new bike? :mad:
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“Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space

PBD.jpg
 
Varaxis said:
I'm trying not to relate to those lyrics too personally. People point out that others get washed up, past their peak and no longer competitive in a certain discipline, but I picture this as just a part of a cycle, with more to life beyond that in which the person can fit into society as a contributing member. How to get younger generations to see this, rather than seeing old folk as just a source of hoarded wealth, simply seeing their power in that money that they pridefully sit on atop an iron throne; the throne being symbolic of all the battles/struggles they've persevered through.

What are people escaping from exactly, I wonder...

I just finished watching that video, giving me a nihilistic impression. All that hevel, and finding joy in our experiences, even experiences of suffering, and assigning meaning to it all ourselves. I guess I should just search reality myself, rather than focusing too hard on reviewing history to learn what I shouldn't copy/repeat, from my dad, from other old folk, from other generations, etc. and just start making "mistakes" myself, as life is the experience. I guess I should just enjoy being an observer, of a society that caters to a diverse collection of people as if it were reality TV, rather than be bothered by how people are being manipulated in various ways, and let others enjoy witnessing how it manipulates me too.
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I'm still on my way up, as I reach "middle age". So I don't fully relate to the lyrics...yet.

Just happens to be ONE of my favorite songs, and the song name relates to your title :gag:
 
The thought that goes through my mind, that makes me consider if it's a loss of humanity:

What happens when a "need-based" welfare system is replaced by a merit-based one? People claim that someone in financial trouble could redeem the system's value, if they were a genius. As for those "forsaken", if they don't qualify yet are needy, not all is lost, as there should be catch-all programs where a use can be found for them, else they do something unsavory out of desperation.

Sounds almost "dystopian", how I think of these systems should be treated as investing in humans, as citizens that need a bit of support before they are self sufficient, rather than simply handing stuff out. One should monitor and manage investments for progress...

BTW, I can't help but notice all these things that are nihilistic, like the humbling wisdom shared by Josh 2 posts above. Kind of covers the idea that things are relatively small, when viewed with a big picture perspective. One of the other ideas of nihilism is to shed preconceived ideas of what's good and bad, and see the "good" even in bad, like seeing upsides to suffering, failure, and things not going as you wish.
 
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Sidewalk said:
“Look again at that dot. That's here. That's home. That's us. On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives. The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there-on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.

The Earth is a very small stage in a vast cosmic arena. Think of the endless cruelties visited by the inhabitants of one corner of this pixel on the scarcely distinguishable inhabitants of some other corner, how frequent their misunderstandings, how eager they are to kill one another, how fervent their hatreds. Think of the rivers of blood spilled by all those generals and emperors so that, in glory and triumph, they could become the momentary masters of a fraction of a dot.

Our posturings, our imagined self-importance, the delusion that we have some privileged position in the Universe, are challenged by this point of pale light. Our planet is a lonely speck in the great enveloping cosmic dark. In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves.

The Earth is the only world known so far to harbor life. There is nowhere else, at least in the near future, to which our species could migrate. Visit, yes. Settle, not yet. Like it or not, for the moment the Earth is where we make our stand.

It has been said that astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”
― Carl Sagan, Pale Blue Dot: A Vision of the Human Future in Space

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Can I get a hallelujah!
 
If you're under the impression that humans are born with a moral sense, and that they inherently know good from evil, you're delusional.

Humans are innately acquisitive, territorial, amoral, and egotistical. We are taught any moral and social inhibitors we may have in the course of being reared by our elders, and such environmental inhibitors as may be present.

It is impossible to lose our "humanity," since it's an ideal that does not exist in nature. Ever wonder why asocial individuals do what they do? They've never been inculcated with a moral sense. All they know is what works for them because they've never been taught differently.

If you refuse to understand that "civilization" is an extremely thin veneer on top of human evolution, then you will never understand the basic motivations that drive human activity. Civilization, such as it is and what there is of it (treating your fellow humans as humans), has been around for less than a thousand years and in many cultures less than a hundred. In some cultures, it still doesn't exist.

So take humanity as it is, strive to improve it, understand that you'll probably fail, and try anyway. The fact that we're on an insignificant little blue dot in the vastness of the universe is irrelevant to reality.

Want to understand human nature? Study chimpanzees, because we're not that far removed.
 
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mike said:
Great post, scissorman. But...


Unfair! Chimps as a whole seem far more civilized. :cool:
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Except that what we've been told isn't reality. Chimps engage in warfare. They protect their borders. They practice exogamy, because while the mothers may know who their sons are, the fathers don't know who their daughters are.

Chimps engage in wholesale slaughter of the young when they take over opposing tribes because this allows the dominant males to pass on their own genes. They also slaughter those who may be a threat.

They are less civilized than we, only because they've had less reason, less practice and less ability to understand why it's a good thing.
 
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Runs with Scissors said:
Except that what we've been told isn't reality. Chimps engage in warfare. They protect their borders. They practice exogamy, because while the mothers may know who their sons are, the fathers don't know who their daughters are.

Chimps engage in wholesale slaughter of the young when they take over opposing tribes because this allows the dominant males to pass on their own genes. They also slaughter those who may be a threat.

They are less civilized than we, only because they've had less reason, less practice and less ability to understand why it's a good thing.
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Well maybe orangutans are more civalized...
https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/07/asia/orangutan-borneo-intl-scli/index.html
 
BonsaiNut said:
It is a beautiful vision... but wholly unrealistic.

Life isn't free. If you think you should be able to sit around and think pure thoughts and someone will come around and feed and clothe and house you... prepare to be disappointed. Humanity is all about caring for people who CAN'T care for themselves. Stupidity is caring for people who WON'T care for themselves. I like living in a society that rewards work and penalizes sloth... because I understand that if given the choice, many/most people would prefer sloth.

As far as capitalism driving everyone to be consumers, you missed the boat (at least in this generation). Consumerism peaked in the 1980's - 90's. People today have shifted focus. They are less interested in ownership and more interested in experiences. There are still huge unresolved questions regarding balance and "fairness" as the economy shifts further away from a labor emphasis and more towards a capital emphasis (at least domestically), but a question of "fairness" is very different from a question of whether the underlying system is broken and needs to be scrapped.

While it is fun to discuss macro-economic theory with you, I fear you won't find a large audience for your position - because most people believe that the current system, while imperfect, is still better than any other system that has been created. Communism and socialism have been proven (at least to me) to be economic train wrecks whenever / wherever practiced.
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"Growth for the sake of growth is the idealogy of the cancer cell" -Edward Abbey. It seems to me that in recent years, unbridled capitalism has become just that, a cancer. And it WILL fight back. Not sayin' I'm a socialist or (god forbid!) a communist (no such state having ever existed, USSR/PRC/etc. being totalitarian oligarchies); but altruism's got to have the reins in controlling & steering our capitalistic ship, in both social & environmental aspects. As it is, our great system is not sustainable in the long term, & that's unfortunate for us hairless primates (DDD not excepted).
 
There is no altruism - only enlightened self interest.

"It makes me feel good to help others." "It makes my life better if there are fewer bums, crooks or violent people..." You get the idea. The only exception might be childbirth, but even that results in somebody that needs, wants and loves me, validating my existence and giving my life purpose.

That said, enlightened self interest is noble, if it does indeed help others on its way to helping one's self.
 
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tick said:
recall the last thirty seconds of the video, where the narrator ties it all up by appealing to God’s judgement as the basis for hope. nobody does a better job encouraging folks to look forward to judgment day then the black church. Thabiti Anyabwile is one of the best...His twitter feed is awesome too.

“African Americans could never have managed to survive without hope. Hope in things unseen has kept African Americans going and kept them sane in the face of unimaginable absurdity. Hope is not an abstraction or an escapist fantasy. Sometimes hope is the only real asset the oppressed have.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/09/why-there-needs-to-be-more-hope/404977/
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Great quote! Hope is everything!
 
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