How I went packless...but not full endurBro.

Mikie said:
And that’s really the deciding factor isn’t it? Riding with @UPSed down in his area you have “water fountains” to refill at. I felt like I needed to hold up a pinky when I say “Water Fountains”. :whistling:

Where @Voodoo Tom and I mostly ride, you got to pack it. At least I do...:( as I am no camel like others here. Gots tah have my aqua!

I do on occasion especially in cooler weather ride an hour or two with just a bottle and I love it!
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@Mikie - You're the guy who always says to bring a pack with 100 ounces of water. And I fall for it every time. Like Lucy with the darn football! And then I carry 100 ounces all day. I think you're just trying to slow me down on the climbs. :cautious: :p :cool:


One thing that everyone seems to mention is their personal water/tailwind needs as if it's a constant. This varies greatly as your fitness level changes. If you're the same fitness level as you've always been, your needs will stay the same. Get in better shape, and you'll need less. Pack on the pounds and eat donuts, and you'll need more.:oops: :D I started with a 100 ounce pack to do my 5 mile O'Neill loops... Maybe 500 feet of climbing. Now? Cannell Plunge is a 1 bottle ride in cooler weather... The first 26 mile loop in VQ was also 1 bottle. Not remotely possible 6 years ago...

Edit: @UPSed wrote his as I was writing mine. Same theme. :thumbsup:

@Redman - Good for you ditching the pack. I hope it works out... If it does, you'll hate putting one on for those back country rides. :thumbsup:
 
Faust29 said:
@Mikie - You're the guy who always says to bring a pack with 100 ounces of water. And I fall for it every time. Like Lucy with the darn football! And then I carry 100 ounces all day. I think you're just trying to slow me down on the climbs. :cautious: :p :cool:


One thing that everyone seems to mention is their personal water/tailwind needs as if it's a constant. This varies greatly as your fitness level changes. If you're the same fitness level as you've always been, your needs will stay the same. Get in better shape, and you'll need less. Pack on the pounds and eat donuts, and you'll need more.:oops: :D I started with a 100 ounce pack to do my 5 mile O'Neill loops... Maybe 500 feet of climbing. Now? Cannell Plunge is a 1 bottle ride in cooler weather... The first 26 mile loop in VQ was also 1 bottle. Not remotely possible 6 years ago...

Edit: @UPSed wrote his as I was writing mine. Same theme. :thumbsup:

@Redman - Good for you ditching the pack. I hope it works out... If it does, you'll hate putting one on for those back country rides. :thumbsup:
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Good points both you and @UPSed. After the second packless ride I realized carrying 100oz of water for a 3 hour ride was overkill (for me). 76oz is plenty for a 3 hour plus ride. As long as I hydrate enough before my rides, I intend to eventually carry less water. Perhaps I can get it down to one bottle. But, that would be a lot of tailwind for one bottle. :eek:
 
OK, I know you all are dying for my input here.

I still like my Dakine Hot Laps Stealth (which sits low, flat and comfy on my waist, under my jersey). Fits all kinds of flat things like bandages, phones, tire levers, multi tool, derailleur cable, Clif bar, keys, small pump, tire bacon, chain link, etc. Can't even feel it on me. Water bottle in cage. Nothing lashed to my bike.

Preload your body with some Skratch or Tailwind and should be good to go for 15 miles or so on a not-hot day. Ride where you can refill and voila!

Downside - nowhere to stash pads or a jacket.
 
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Purging your day kit of needless items and riding more comfortably are good things – nice work, Redman.

Stripping away blue-moon items like a derailleur hanger and first aid...no thanks. When you need them, nothing will suffice. I've seen more than one der hanger break. I've patched up myself, my bike and other people and their tires too many times to recall. Dirt makes for poor antiseptic, as a bro reminded me.

I'm about as pared down as I care to be. What @Faust29 says is gospel: Get an edge and you'll need less. Also, with that edge, you (read: a rider, @Redman) don't have such a need to count grams.

I stopped using Tailwind. I do think it's an effective product, but the TW program doesn't work for multi-day riding. Depletion training is where it's at. Minimize your consumption of water, food and oxygen on a ride, and your load can get pretty damn light and small. As always, fitness and skill are the best things to carry with you – they eliminate or minimize need for other things that weigh and take up space.


PS: @Redman, yes, hydration before the ride! Not starting an hour before, either. More like 48. So simple; so overlooked. :thumbsup:
 
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I've tried the pack less thing a few times and while I enjoy the freedom I don't enjoy the phone call or walk of shame. I ride a lot probably 250 or so times a year. Lots of these are commutes to and from work but I like to go the long "adventurous" way and I gotta carry clothes and lunch so the pack gets used every time even without the bladder. I'm part camel and do 3-4 hour rides on about 1.5 liters. My phone pretty much never works where I ride even on about half of my commutes.

As far as the basics I carry and whether or not they have been needed.

~Derailleur cable: Yep I'm a bushwacking kind of guy sometimes things get torn off your bike. Only needed it once for my bike but I've donated at least 4 of them to others in need.

~Derailleur hanger: Yep I've bent one and cleaned another one completely off the bike. Both were on a semi routine commute. They weigh virtually nothing so I have one for each bike in my pack.

~Zip ties, plugs, tube, tape, tire boots, bandages etc. Duh of course I've needed em and more often than not others do to.

~ Brake pads: Again they weigh nothing and while I've never needed em I've donated to others.

~ electrolyte tablets, relish packs, snacks etc: I don't need that sh!t I'm on the Tailwindzzzzzzz bandwagon but I've saved many others by carrying it. Again pretty much zero weight added.

~Headlight and blinky lights get carried as needed which is a bunch of the time.

~ Vaseline soaked cotton balls and matches: Hmmm I guess I haven't needed these yet but I ride with @Mikie all the time and it's only a matter of time before we are going to need an emergency campfire or one of us is going to want to burn their bike in to oblivion and it'll probably be me. Hopefully he's packing heat to scare off the bears and stuff.

Strava "participation trophies" and "KOM's" can be earned with a pack on your back if you want em bad enough.
 
mike said:
Purging your day kit of needless items and riding more comfortably are good things – nice work, Redman.

Stripping away blue-moon items like a derailleur hanger and first aid...no thanks. When you need them, nothing will suffice. I've seen more than one der hanger break. I've patched up myself, my bike and other people and their tires too many times to recall. Dirt makes for poor antiseptic, as a bro reminded me.

I'm about as pared down as I care to be. What @Faust29 says is gospel: Get an edge and you'll need less. Also, with that edge, you don't have such a need to count grams.

I stopped using Tailwind. I do think it's an effective product, but the TW program doesn't work for multi-day riding. Depletion training is where it's at. Minimize your consumption of water, food and oxygen on a ride, and your load can get pretty damn light and small. As always, fitness and skill are the best things to carry with you – they eliminate or minimize need for other things that weigh and take up space.


PS: @Redman, yes, hydration before the ride! Not starting an hour before, either. More like 48. So simple; so overlooked. :thumbsup:
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I can throw a hanger and small kit in my pockets. :ninja:

Not a gram counter at all. Lol. Have you seen my bike?

And, yes proper hydration is crucial. It’s an everyday thing. It’s s rare sight to see me drink anything but water. Fully filtered reverse osmosis on tap in my home.
 
I carry the same toolkit (in the same pack) on pretty much all my rides. Most of the weight is in water.

For a few of the items mentioned like cable and D-hanger, or stuff for tire repair, I'll always carry those. You can shave a bit of weight without them but when you need them, you really need them. Most of what's in there is there because I have needed it, or seen other people need it. If it is reasonably small and light and could save your ride, I bring it. That said my toolkit is pretty small, and could probably fit it in a jersey pocket or a small frame bag.

I've tried setting up a smaller pack but always end up forgetting important stuff transferring things between bags, and those have been the times I've had to walk or limp out. Having 2 complete setups would be the only way for me, but I'm so used to the bag I have it really doesn't bother me.

There are so many options now for mounting tools and other gear to the bike if you want to go packless there should be nothing to stop you.
 
I talked to the @Redman himself a few weeks ago and he was kind enough to share his thoughts. I go light and this system works for me (plus or minus a couple items-- like zip ties and duct tape). It actually doubles what I've been carrying lately and is clean and functional.

First thing I did was order the RF bibs and they fit great. :thumbsup: Tucked a phone/ID/CC/cash in a back pocket and an extra co2 in another, pulled on some light shorts and T-shirt, and went for a ride. I'm sold.

Next move will be the OneUp pump, EDC tool and patch kit. With a tube on the frame and everything else in the pump, I can lose the Lezyne tool caddy in the bottom cage and put a 24oz. bottle there if I'm going on a long ride. Otherwise I'll take that cage off. I carry a 20oz. bottle in the front triangle which works fine for hour plus rides.

Tailwind eliminates the need for Gu's, Clif bars, enduralytes, snickers bars, cheeseburgers or anything else food-wise, with the exception of a breakfast burrito I plan to eat if they ever let us up on Santiago again. The 2 TW bottles plus some water in a back pocket will keep that dang pack off my back, and reduce or eliminate the cramps I'm prone to after long rides. I might throw a plastic flask of espresso in the 3rd bib pocket if I'm feeling euro.

And yeah, if it's out of the area or cold or I'm doing trail work or something committing like bikepacking, I'm liable to carry a pack. But most of the time, on the rides I usually do, I'm over it.
 
The Apollo 15-17 astronauts would start every EVA by driving the lunar rover as far from the LM as allowed by the “walk back limit.” For Apollo 15 the calculation was that they could walk 5km back to camp before the air ran out in their backpacks if the rover broke. By Apollo 17 that number was raised to 8 km, based on the demonstrated reliability of the packs. As their air and water was consumed during the day, they would work progressively closer to the LM, leaving time to spare to get camp chores done.

Calculating the walk back limit correctly is key. I will ride Oaks or the San Joaquins with one bottle and a small frame bag, because the entire park is within the limit. Not yet confident enough to try it in Crested Butte.
 
@tick makes perfect sense and I could easily do this with one bottle on most my rides. I’m just not accustomed to planning my route ahead of time and needing to go to certain places to refill. I never plan my routes, I barely plan wear I’m going to ride. Most of the time I’m deciding on where to ride as I’m driving. Maybe I’ll give the one bottle thing a whirl this weekend.
 
These work great for carrying bare essentials, like a CO2 setup and some other junk. I usually carry on light rides or shuttling on the DH bike where things would be a long hike. I overcarried so much stuff for the longest time and now it's pretty much a basic few things. I saw some cageless water bottles the other day, so I might try one of those out. The more I ride, the less and less water I need. I've done Floop tons of times and carried nothing.

I was at Oaks the other day and dude was going weight weenie. Broke the bead on his tubeless setup on what looked like 1.75s and paper thin sidewalls. Sorry buddy, looks like you're walking down from Barham. I only had my small Lezyne pump. I don't flat much with wire bead Minions.

https://www.jensonusa.com/Fabric-Ca..._JxaSboXsThIMWYZyOnowxYS4Nrb-8QBoCCo8QAvD_BwE
 
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Once again, I go back to calculated risk.

On the SS I have less to go wrong. No hangers to worry about, no cable to break, no derailleur to put in the spokes.

I run with my Crank Bros. multi 17 and a mini pump in my jersey pocket. Chain link, tube, plug kit in a seat bag.

If I can’t sort out the problem with my multi tool, the problem is probably catastrophic.

When I broke my seatpost in Aliso a while back, it made for a long and uncomfortable ride back to Quail, but it’s not something that happens on a regular basis.

Fluids are what they are....some of us can go hours and miles with very little. I also think that some drink too much, because it’s there.
 
I recently picked up the Specialized Enduro bib shorts. They are really nice baggy shorts with lots of handy pockets. The bibs have pockets just like a tight roadie jersey in the back. Plus pockets in the side under the shorts, and two regular front pockets. I carry a multi tool and CO2, more if needed. I have a waist bottle holder for a second bottle if needed. Frame mounted pump, tube and levers on the frame. Plenty of space to strap extra spares to the frame if needed.

I only carry a pack for EXTRA long rides, like PCE loop. I can do the PCE just fine with two bottles, I don't need a pack, only if I am planning to climb back up on the big bike. I plan to do the loop on my XC next season, that will only be a two bottle ride (refill at the bottom).

What I carry is all about managed risk. Can I manage to be without a tube? More than two bottles? A cable/hanger? Usually I don't need those, especially a hanger or cable as I have only ever bent a hanger a couple of times and a cable a couple of times in 10's of thousands of MTB and road mileage (thousands on MTB). And I can adjust the derailleur to be SS to get me off a mountain with some creativity.
 
Faust29 said:
@Redman (and maybe @doublewide ?) - How is the sizing on the RF bibs? You guys got me looking at them...
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I got RF bibs from Backcountry.com. Customer Service suggested trying the Large and they fit great. Call and they can help dial it in. I like how the pockets (stitched to the shorts) don't sag or pull like jersey pockets.

The SWAT bibs look good, too. Keep in mind both are designed as breathable liners and are slightly transparent, so simple baggies and jersey are recommended.
 
I am also a packless fanboi. After ditching the pack for a few rides, I found that my riding was actually different. I found myself more dynamic on the bike and more motivated to move to the extremes of my comfort zone because all of the weight moved and shifted with me. The minute amount of shifting that the camelbak (or other brands) do is enough to throw me off... even with the uswe packs which people swear are the most stable.

At any rate... I use combo's of the following:
1) Alpine Threadworks Frame Bag (used mostly on my enduro bike) - http://www.alpinethreadworks.com/products/performance-satchel.html
-This carries my multitool, tube, patch kit, plug kit, derailleur hanger, zip ties, 10 dollar bill, 2 co2 canisters and a c02 inflator.

2) Lezyne HP pump with water bottle cage mounts. I use this on some bikes, on others i carry co2. This is mostly relied on for back country stuff.

3) Specialized Top Cap Chain Breaker - Nuff said... you don't need one until you need one.

4) Bottle Cages... If a bike can fit them, I have one installed and use it.

5) Specialized SWAT bibs. I'm going to checkout the raceface after reading this thread. I hate specialized but their mountain liner pro bibs have been great. I'd love to find another suitable brand as a replacement.

6) Back Country research strap - I use one of these on all my bikes except for the hightower to carry a tube, tire levers, multi tool and co2.

I do grab my pack for longer or more remote, higher cost of entry stuff like PCE or something. I also have a dakine fanny pack that gets used for mid range distance rides.
 
I am experimenting with the same--packless--and usually ride Tapia without a pack, even if I'm going 15 - 20 miles. Works well and only once have I been in need of an item I didn't have.I do STRONGLY prefer having a pump over CO2 so I bought a large OneUP EDC pump. Haven't found a good way to mount it so I'm still don't have it on the bike. Have to figure that out. I setup the Ripmo with an EDC headset and the TB3 with a I9 Matchstix axle. Minimal, but usually those do the trick (if marginally).

NOTE: If anyone in the SCV area needs an EDC tap, I purchase the tap system. Happy to loan it to you if you want to do a head tube EDC tool.
 
and they wonder why I ride hardtails...
It opens up a whole triangle of storage possibilities.
Both my hardtails have dual Zee cages and usually carry 24oz bottles. Depends on the ride.
Both bikes have Revelate feed bags, the new design which can easily fit a 1l Nalgene.
Both bikes have under seat storage. One a tool roll, the other a minimalist SWAT roll that bolts to the Phenom saddle.
I have various other attachments that I use as necessary.
My Chisel has a B-Rad that gives me room for a small bag by the BB.

I always carry:
TP
Tube
Pump
Tire lever or Wolftooth pack tool
Tire boot
Patch kit
Contains various nuts, screws, emergency joint, a ferrule or two
Couple of chain links
Quick link
Der. Cable
Zip tie
Some wire
Duct tape (gorilla tape is too stiff)
Hanger (not for the Highball those things are huge!)
Topeak mini 18 tool
Phone wallet keys
Clif bars
Extra headsweat
First aid-see duct tape, zip ties, wire
Probably forgot something...

But it all fits. I don't carry anything in my pockets. Don't wear the bibs cuz I'm usually free balling or just thin lycra boxers
Works for me. YMMV

typical set up for a 14mile/2000ft climb/sub two hour ride
IMG_20180828_071043.jpg
 
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