But probably still with no enforcement...

[kioti]

Good points. The speed differential and lack of etiquette among e-bike riders is a concern for sure. It is bad enough having riders ride downhill at irresponsible speed, but now they can do that going uphill too.

Relating to the political comment above, what irks me is that e-bikes are coming in and just trying to jump on the coat tails of all the hard advocacy work done by mountain bikers. "Hey, we're mountain bikes too!" No, you're not. Don't pretend to be. How much advocacy have e-bikers or e-bike companies done to demonstrate that those bikes are an acceptable use in parks and public lands? Are there e-bike advocacy groups? Do e-bike riders get involved in advocacy? I've yet to see one show up and speak about e-bikes at any advocacy meeting, trail day, or other event. I'd be shocked to hear of any efforts aside from lobbying by e-bike manufacturers.

Well, I don't know about advocacy, but I do have a friend who's an industry rep and he helps me and others with trail work whenever he can. Keeps trying to set me up on an e-bike but I guess I'm just old-fashioned. Did I mention he's young and a hell of a climber?

 

[SingleTrackJB]

Further to comments already made, i think it is a matter of public safety. The speeds are simply too high, especially uphill. (yes some non ebikes go too fast too in some spots / blind corners)

On a different topic, the parks should also consider more one way trails. I am afraid there is an accident waiting to happen, and we dont want that. Does anyone know a contact at the parks to make that case? I know LCF in Laguna is a good contact point for LCWP/Aliso.

 

[mtnbikej]

Further to comments already made, i think it is a matter of public safety. The speeds are simply too high, especially uphill. (yes some non ebikes go too fast too in some spots / blind corners)

On a different topic, the parks should also consider more one way trails. I am afraid there is an accident waiting to happen, and we dont want that. Does anyone know a contact at the parks to make that case? I know LCF in Laguna is a good contact point for LCWP/Aliso.

jacky.cordero@ocparks.com

Operations manager @ OC Parks

 

[kioti]

Further to comments already made, i think it is a matter of public safety. The speeds are simply too high, especially uphill. (yes some non ebikes go too fast too in some spots / blind corners)

On a different topic, the parks should also consider more one way trails. I am afraid there is an accident waiting to happen, and we dont want that. Does anyone know a contact at the parks to make that case? I know LCF in Laguna is a good contact point for LCWP/Aliso.

I agree to a certain extent, but there are problems. How would one-way trails work in a park/county with limited trail systems in the first place? They'd immediately cut single track mileage in half, and we don't have that much of it. The easiest fix I see, along with the rules we have in place, is to provide good sight lines and enough width for two-way traffic.

 

[Rumpled]

Biggest issue......bicycles don't have motors. Allowing bicycles with motors on trails where motors are prohibited is what irks me. Add to that the in uphill speeds. Right now other trail users know that our uphill speed is pretty slow....but the closing speed of an ebike on a climb coming up behind a hiker or a horse is unnatural.

Most non cyclists can tell the difference between a pedal bike and an ebike....so we all look alike.



You will get riders farther out into locations that they probably shouldn't be in based on their fitness.

For me it has nothing to do with Strava

I'm pretty sure you mean CANNOT tell the difference, right?

 

[mtbMike]

It's been addressed but my overall concern is future trail access issues.....once they open the Pandora's box and say "Class 1" 250W e-bikes are legal everywhere, I foresee potential issues down the road. Number one, there's already people out there modifying their bikes to make them go faster by re-programming them or buying hop-up kits readily available online. I'm sure there will people with Class 2 & 3 500/750W e-bikes who will be jumping on the trails as well, claiming ignorance in the unlikely event they get stopped by authorities. I've already seen a 750W bike out on Palm Canyon. Speaking of authorities, the BLM has already said that one of the reasons they have banned e-bikes altogether is because they have no way to regulate them. They don't have enough personnel as it is to be inspecting e-bikes and IF they were legal, all the rangers would have to be trained on telling the difference between the different class bikes....it's much easier and cheaper to tell if a bike has a motor or not.

 

[mtnbikej]

Yeah, we will never get one way trails....gotta remember that all trails in OC Parks are Multi Use trails.


However pressure to put up signs and enforce the rule ahould be applied.

 

[mtnbikej]

I'm pretty sure you mean CANNOT tell the difference, right?

Auto correct.

Fixed it.

 

[littlewave]

I'm probably in the minority, but they don't really bother me. I'd honestly like to ride one just to have an informed opinion on how they actually work and feel, but I'm definitely in the camp of otherwise thinking they are lame and unnecessary. I've been passed like I was standing still a few times on the loop by riders appearing 'less-than-fit'. I guess I'm usually just the live and let live type as long as it doesn't negatively impact the trails or other people's experience. I can honestly say that people bumping backpack speakers annoy me way more than e-bikes. This is under the assumption they are more 'pedal-assist' and not electric throttle, which I'm sure is an entirely different argument...

Honest question, what are people's main complaints about them on the trails?

That they aren't allowed on the trails? If by chance they become legal to ride through e-bike advocates, whatever, I won't care. Until then, stay off trails where motors aren't allowed!

 

[kioti]

Yeah, we will never get one way trails....gotta remember that all trails in OC Parks are Multi Use trails.

With notable exceptions: Hiker-only trails like Cave Rock and Nature Loop in Aliso, no-bikes trails like Hoffman Homestead in O'Neill, one-way for bikes on Borrego in Whiting.. no bike-only trails that I know of..

 

[BigTex]

Every time this comes up, I'm always surprised at the people who don't "see what the problem is." Several of those have been addressed in this thread - closing rates and increased risk of collision, loss of access, etc. There's also the possibility of uphill traffic on trails that bikes normally don't go up.

The one that shocks me that people never bring up is the risk of fire. Do you know why Lithium batteries aren't allowed in checked luggage on planes? Because they can spontaneously combust, even explode. This isn't usually a problem for well-made batteries, but a minor manufacturing defect can change that. And the really cheap batteries are a big problem. My wife and son witnessed an e-bike start shooting sparks and burst into flame. Left a nice char mark on the sidewalk. Now imagine that happens on a Santa Ana wind day in Whiting Ranch ... things could get ugly in a hurry. We don't really need another fire risk in Southern California.

If land managers deem them acceptable for the local trails, then great. If, however, they are prohibited, that should be respected. A big problem is the retailers, eager to make a sale, probably aren't bothering to tell people where they are prohibited.

 

[sir crashalot]

The one that shocks me that people never bring up is the risk of fire. Do you know why Lithium batteries aren't allowed in checked luggage on planes? Because they can spontaneously combust, even explode. This isn't usually a problem for well-made batteries, but a minor manufacturing defect can change that. And the really cheap batteries are a big problem. My wife and son witnessed an e-bike start shooting sparks and burst into flame. Left a nice char mark on the sidewalk. Now imagine that happens on a Santa Ana wind day in Whiting Ranch ... things could get ugly in a hurry. We don't really need another fire risk in Southern California.

Ha, I was just about to post up about the fire risk, but you beat me to it. One of the reasons many wilderness trails are labeled non-motorized is the inherent fire risk from any engine.

 

[mtnbikej]

A big problem is the retailers, eager to make a sale, probably aren't bothering to tell people where they are prohibited.

This is what I really want to know what shops are telling potential buyers.

I know there are several shop owners and shop employees regularly riding them in the Oaks.....even when educators nag them that they are prohibited....they just ignore it.

I have an image of shops telling potential buyers that they are bicycles this allowed everywhere bicycles are allowed.....but not warning them that certain areas don’t allow them... prettty much 90% of the trails that riders in OC will ride.

 

[doublewide]

 

[sir crashalot]

This is what I really want to know what shops are telling potential buyers.

I know there are several shop owners and shop employees regularly riding them in the Oaks.....even when educators nag them that they are prohibited....they just ignore it.

I have an image of shops telling potential buyers that they are bicycles this allowed everywhere bicycles are allowed.....but not warning them that certain areas don’t allow them... prettty much 90% of the trails that riders in OC will ride.

Guaranteed no OC bike shop ever told a potential e-mtb buyer that they are not permitted on any of the good trails in the OC parks.

 

[evdog]

Would be easy to go in as a secret shopper saying you want to buy and e-bike and simply ask the question about whether you can ride it or not in specific places. Record conversation. Post up. Then people can vote with their dollars.

 

[Stkx66]

Recently I was at the dopplar in Blackstar and a white haired retired aged man rode up on his E-bike. He stated that the only way he could make it up there anymore was with help. I thought for those who may have disabilities of some sort that this is a way for them to enjoy what we all enjoy. I had no problem with it. On the other hand the guy who rode up to me at the end of Emerald canyon on his E-bike was 62 years old and he rode his E-bike like he was 22 yrs. old. He skidded up to the fence and pitched his bike sideways and laughed the whole time. That was 2nd or so run for the morning and said he had plenty of battery left to rip up some more.

 

[mtnbikej]

Recently I was a the dopplar in Blackstar and a white haired retired aged man rode up on his E-bike. He stated that the only way he could make it up there anymore was with help. I though for those who may have disabilities of some sort that this is a way for them to enjoy what we all enjoy. I had no problem with it. On the other hand the guy who rode up to me at the end of Emerald canyon on his E-bike was 62 years old and he rode his E-bike like he was 22 yrs. old. He skidded up to the fence and pitched his bike sideways and laughed the whole time. That was 2nd or so run for the morning and said he had plenty of battery left to rip up some more.

I’ve said it before, age is not a disability.

Getting old sometimes means you can’t do what you used to be able to do. Yup, I understand we will all be there at some point. I see plenty of older’ish peeps still rocking pedal bikes just fine.

 

[evdog]

Recently I was a the dopplar in Blackstar and a white haired retired aged man rode up on his E-bike. He stated that the only way he could make it up there anymore was with help. I though for those who may have disabilities of some sort that this is a way for them to enjoy what we all enjoy.

I have no problem with people who have some sort of disability using them, and even getting a waiver or permit to ride areas where they normally aren't allowed. What I do have a problem with is lazy, able-bodied people trying to use disabled people as an example as to why THEY should be able to ride an e-bike wherever they want.

 

[Robbie]

Li battery applications that have had unpredictable, intense chemical fires:

Boeing 787
Samsung cell phone
ipad
Tesla automobiles
e cigarettes
e bikes

On the 787 incident, the exact cause was never determined, and the fleet corrective action was to encase the battery in a metal box with a chimbly to vent the fire and heat out the fuselage in case it happens again.
I'm surprised they are allowed in any backcountry area.
Washington state recently banned them on most state and county trails.

 

[kioti]

People see batteries in everything these days, so why not bikes?

 

[Cyclotourist]

I’ve said it before, age is not a disability.

Getting old sometimes means you can’t do what you used to be able to do. Yup, I understand we will all be there at some point. I see plenty of older’ish peeps still rocking pedal bikes just fine.

Me in a few years:

 

[OTHRider]

David, for the love of all that is good, please slam your stem and man-up for a 1X system. That's embarrassing for all us tri-riders. Nice riding loafers though.

 

[Cyclotourist]

David, for the love of all that is good, please slam your stem and man-up for a 1X system. That's embarrassing for all us tri-riders. Nice riding loafers though.

I'll get to that... just trying to figure out where I'll put the battery!

For realz though... I'll probably get the equivalent of a Copenhagen wheel at some point.

 

[evdog]

Li battery applications that have had unpredictable, intense chemical fires:

Boeing 787
Samsung cell phone
ipad
Tesla automobiles
e cigarettes
e bikes

Don't forget drones. The previous CEO at my company was into drones and had some sitting in a storage room here at the office. One of the spare batteries spontaneously combusted. The fire didn't get very far but the damage including flooding from sprinklers was around $85k.

 

[Faust29]

The “I’d be ok with a handicapped rider” is addressed in the OC Parks decision. They aren’t ok with it. They don’t see an e-bike as a reasonable accommodation- only conveyances that meet the definition of wheelchair.

I’d bet clarification on this point from the lawyers was what made the decision/notice take so long in the first place...

 

[mtnbikej]

I sent Jacky Cordero an email to find out what we can expect from this. She is out of the office til next week.

We shall see.

 

[mtnbikej]

And to all the "I'll just get a Dr.'s Note" people......While ADA doesn't allow the rangers to ask what your disability is.....they can ask for proof of disability by way of a State issues placard, similar to Handicap Parking placards.....Dr.'s are not going to hand these out and risk losing their licenses for falsifying ADA laws.


"(c)(1) Inquiry about disability. A public entity shall not ask an individual using a wheelchair or other power-driven mobility device questions about the nature and extent of the individual´s disability.
(2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public entity that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual’s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance´s requirements for disability placards or cards."

 

[Faust29]

And to all the "I'll just get a Dr.'s Note" people......While ADA doesn't allow the rangers to ask what your disability is.....they can ask for proof of disability by way of a State issues placard, similar to Handicap Parking placards.....Dr.'s are not going to hand these out and risk losing their licenses for falsifying ADA laws.


"(c)(1) Inquiry about disability. A public entity shall not ask an individual using a wheelchair or other power-driven mobility device questions about the nature and extent of the individual´s disability.
(2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public entity may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public entity that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued, disability parking placard or card, or other State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual’s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public entity shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance´s requirements for disability placards or cards."

But... That's all irrelevant the way they've written the notice. They've effectively determined that an e-bike is not a reasonable accommodation for a disability on off-road trails. Only conveyances that meet the definition of wheelchairs. We'll see if it stands...

And... If I do see an e-wheelchair going down Lizards, I'm giving that person a High 5!

 

[herzalot]

I see plenty of older’ish peeps still rocking pedal bikes just fine.

Awww, thanks!