Aliso-Wood and Laguna Coast Wilderness Parks
- Thread starter herzalot
- Start date
Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
I find myself in the same boat.
Hey Adam,
Thanks for the data!
We got 11 pages of debate with no solutions. Not that we can even think that we would come up with solutions on a mountain bike forum. After all we are not the Senate!
Not that you have to answer any of the below...
First...
I'm curious about the numbers. For me they pretty much blur, which leaves me curious.
For one, they do not add up to 100%. For me, they got to add up to 100% or it means nothing unless I'm missing something.
Out of 100 people who enter the park 71 of them are Walking.
Out of 100 people, 63 are Hiking/Trail Running.
Out of 100 people 53 are Relaxing/Family Time.
Out of 100 people 34 are Watching Birds.
An out of 100 people, 15 are riding Mountain Bikes.
What is the difference between Relaxing Family Time and people Walking, Watching Birds, Hiking and Trail Running. Are relaxing people just sitting on a bench for some designated amount of time to be considered relaxing? If they are not using trails then I consider them not a part of the trail challenge. So these number unfortunately mean nothing to me unless it can provide a true ratio of folks utilizing OC Parks.
Second...
I work for a large company.
Large companies have red tape. I "think" the red tape is to slow down quick un-thought out unilateral decisions or positions to benefit smaller parties as oppose to the whole. But sometimes red tape is too slow for changes needed. We have something at work called the 5 Why's. It's a process to drill down to the root cause of any issue:
Example:
1. Why do we do this this way?
Well because of this, this, and this.
2. Why is that important?
Because of this, this, and this.
3. Why are they important?
Usually I don't have to dig deeper than the 4th why before someone is looking at me saying, "I think we can make some adjustments."
1. Why do we have off menu trails?
Because there are not enough existing trails, the trails are not challenging for advanced riders, there is too much traffic on the existing trails.
2. Why are there not enough trails? Why are the existing trails not challenging enough? Why is there too much traffic?
You see, I can't really get past the 2nd why to know what the problem is. It's not bad land management, we just need better land management.
It can be as painful as single point entry, where "the percentages from above" when they actually make sense to me, are first come first served to access each day. As people leave, more people are let in.
It could be that odd/even is implemented per user group. Hikers, Bird Watchers, Runners & Equestrians on Odd Days. Mountain Bikers on even days during peak user times.
It could be not accepting the process to adopt trails, and demanding a more streamline process by challenging that process. Every policy has a right to be challenged and changed.
It could also be opening up some habitat areas to trail use. Nothing is written in stone other than our Constitution and Bill of Rights, that can not be amended. They do it all the time when money is involved. Just look at the shady deals for land development, it's amazing how deals and agreements change when some big developer comes in with backing bucks.
California of any state is all big on the minority, love to play to the underdogs. Even if the 15% is true, that 15% pays taxes and contributes to society, so in my mind they have equal rights/privileges to OC Park participation as anybody.
So I am going to refer to a question I asked pages ago.
What organization is going to stand up and meet the needs as representation for the Mountain Biking Community? Who are we going to unite behind to make sure our interests are met?
Yes it will mean compromise, yes it may be painful, but tapping on keyboards is not going to get anything done.
"What do confused people do? Nothing! Because they are confused."
Let's not be confused. Let's consolidate, unify, identify a legal organization that has the means and ability to take this through proper channels and make changes to secure our position.
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sir crashalot
iMTB Rockstah
Like Herzy mentioned. regulations such as odd/even days in the Laguna parks should only apply to weekends, trail impact during the week is soooo much less, basically
negligible. Leave my Wed (legal-trail, non-E-bike ) riding days alone!
negligible. Leave my Wed (legal-trail, non-E-bike ) riding days alone!
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JamR
Newbie with Hope!
You have just made one my points of misconceptions, and why many people stay away from forums (myself included), and why forums are not taken seriously. Just trying to get some facts out and settle down misconceptions.
Surveys do not add up to 100%. Never have and never will. They ask participants a number of questions on their recreation choices (plural), and participants can check all the recreation choices they participate in, not just one. People do participate in more than one activity. This is how the numbers shape up. It is a simple matter of the Activities (plural) that people check off.
Denying the fact that we are not the largest user group in these parks leaves little room for even a starting point of a legitimate conversation. Bikers use this inaccurate point far too often, and when used, it lessens the credibility of the conversation.
Discounting legitimate county-wide and state-wide surveys does not help outsiders who read these posts walk away with a better impression of our sport.
JamR out.
skyungjae
Member
When I used to hit up the FLoop with my various e-bominations, I would usually ride between noon - 3pm when it was peak heat and literally no traffic on the trail. It's not that I was fast on the bike, I just wanted to save myself any embarrassment when being passed by some dude on a 90's hardtail.
I wonder if it would be more effective to simply regulate e-bikes like parking by giving them access to certain days and hours of the day.
No e-bikes allowed on weekends and holidays, and let them be used between 10am - 3pm on weekdays. Let them have their fun when no one else is around.
I wonder if it would be more effective to simply regulate e-bikes like parking by giving them access to certain days and hours of the day.
No e-bikes allowed on weekends and holidays, and let them be used between 10am - 3pm on weekdays. Let them have their fun when no one else is around.
mtnbikej
J-Zilla
When I used to hit up the FLoop with my various e-bominations, I would usually ride between noon - 3pm when it was peak heat and literally no traffic on the trail. It's not that I was fast on the bike, I just wanted to save myself any embarrassment when being passed by some dude on a 90's hardtail.
I wonder if it would be more effective to simply regulate e-bikes like parking by giving them access to certain days and hours of the day.
No e-bikes allowed on weekends and holidays, and let them be used between 10am - 3pm on weekdays. Let them have their fun when no one else is around.
Nope
kioti
iMTB Rockstah
Unfortunately, a survey that doesn't include equestrian use doesn't make sense for our trails. They are legal users and, in my experience, horses do significant damage (especially in damp conditions during and after storms). I have also not seen them out repairing said damage, but maybe they do (@horsebikerider being a positive example).
Also, I did a casual survey once on a local multi-use trail.. approximately 60 mountain bikers in 60 minutes on a sunny Saturday morning. I don't recall there being any hikers but there might've been a few, and no equestrians during that time frame.
As far as being part of the solution.. in 10 years of doing trail work on National Forest and county park trails, I've seen the vast majority of trail maintenance done by mountain bike volunteers. That's on multi-use trails. The Warrior's Society partners with the USFS to keep the Trabuco Ranger District trails in shape and SHARE and OC Park volunteers and staff work in OC Parks. LCF works in Laguna parks and gets their volunteers from mountain bike and hiking user groups, but their trail boss is a mountain biker and the trail work is designed with mountain biking in mind. Sometimes these groups get corporate volunteers, which is great, but to me the most effective work is accomplished by experienced trail builders/volunteers. Work in the San Mateo Wilderness is often handled by the Sierra Club, as it is hiking/equestrian only.
Occasionally, heavy equipment is used on county park trails: by OC Parks staff, outside entities or sometimes by paid contractors. It's often not done to proper trail work standards--road grading in particular--and I'd like to see that change. The recent work on Cactus (in Whiting) was done by a paid contractor who didn't include watering and packing the finished product. Hopefully, the contractor will return to finish the work, or volunteers-- working with the Ranger-- will be allowed to water and pack the trail. To do otherwise is to create a hazardous and unsustainable result, with injury to users and the environment, IMO.
As @mtnbikej writes, all user groups have members who create damage or conflict. Even birdwatchers-- which sounds odd, but is perhaps the group most likely to walk off-trail. Two solutions I support to reduce conflict and lessen damage are: 1) improving sight lines on multi-use trails so users can see through or over brush and avoid surprises/collisions, and 2) in-sloping turns to help keep bikes on the trail, keep the trail a desired width and not cause habitat damage on the outslope.
Education is key and it's important for each user group, or those moving back and forth between different groups, to keep an eye out, show respect for, and be courteous toward other users, legit or not. For the most part, this is what I see on OC area trails.
Also, I did a casual survey once on a local multi-use trail.. approximately 60 mountain bikers in 60 minutes on a sunny Saturday morning. I don't recall there being any hikers but there might've been a few, and no equestrians during that time frame.
As far as being part of the solution.. in 10 years of doing trail work on National Forest and county park trails, I've seen the vast majority of trail maintenance done by mountain bike volunteers. That's on multi-use trails. The Warrior's Society partners with the USFS to keep the Trabuco Ranger District trails in shape and SHARE and OC Park volunteers and staff work in OC Parks. LCF works in Laguna parks and gets their volunteers from mountain bike and hiking user groups, but their trail boss is a mountain biker and the trail work is designed with mountain biking in mind. Sometimes these groups get corporate volunteers, which is great, but to me the most effective work is accomplished by experienced trail builders/volunteers. Work in the San Mateo Wilderness is often handled by the Sierra Club, as it is hiking/equestrian only.
Occasionally, heavy equipment is used on county park trails: by OC Parks staff, outside entities or sometimes by paid contractors. It's often not done to proper trail work standards--road grading in particular--and I'd like to see that change. The recent work on Cactus (in Whiting) was done by a paid contractor who didn't include watering and packing the finished product. Hopefully, the contractor will return to finish the work, or volunteers-- working with the Ranger-- will be allowed to water and pack the trail. To do otherwise is to create a hazardous and unsustainable result, with injury to users and the environment, IMO.
As @mtnbikej writes, all user groups have members who create damage or conflict. Even birdwatchers-- which sounds odd, but is perhaps the group most likely to walk off-trail. Two solutions I support to reduce conflict and lessen damage are: 1) improving sight lines on multi-use trails so users can see through or over brush and avoid surprises/collisions, and 2) in-sloping turns to help keep bikes on the trail, keep the trail a desired width and not cause habitat damage on the outslope.
Education is key and it's important for each user group, or those moving back and forth between different groups, to keep an eye out, show respect for, and be courteous toward other users, legit or not. For the most part, this is what I see on OC area trails.
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mtnbikej
J-Zilla
I hope we are not talking about that craptastic survey the parks sent out several months ago.
If we are going off that.....then yeah, I could see how ourbuser group is much smaller....since we generally don’t care about playgrounds, picnic tables, other park amenities not related to trail use. However if I recall correctly, there were a lot of questions unrelated to trails....or unrelated to what we consider trails.
If we are going off that.....then yeah, I could see how ourbuser group is much smaller....since we generally don’t care about playgrounds, picnic tables, other park amenities not related to trail use. However if I recall correctly, there were a lot of questions unrelated to trails....or unrelated to what we consider trails.
kioti
iMTB Rockstah
Another point that may have been mentioned.. there are hiker or "no bikes" trails in the county parks, but I'm not aware of any "mountain bike only" trails. There's even the James Dilley Preserve, which is an entire park that excludes bicycles, as well as the San Mateo Wilderness area south of Ortega Highway. I'm not complaining, as a lifelong hiker it's nice to have those options, but there is a discrepancy.
Concerning weekend mornings in County parks, I'd say it's a great time to practice diplomacy. We already know those are the most crowded times, so expectations of empty trails are unrealistic. Ride as part of the whole and make friends. I ride in the afternoon/evenings and can't believe how empty the trails are, but even so--same rules apply when interacting with other users. Modify behavior to change result?
Concerning weekend mornings in County parks, I'd say it's a great time to practice diplomacy. We already know those are the most crowded times, so expectations of empty trails are unrealistic. Ride as part of the whole and make friends. I ride in the afternoon/evenings and can't believe how empty the trails are, but even so--same rules apply when interacting with other users. Modify behavior to change result?
Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
Thanks @JamR !
I think Forums could be taken very seriously. It's just as much a voice as any other social media. Surveys DO add up to 100 when you have a choice of one identifying answer. The numbers question was not questioning you or your numbers it was a question to understand the numbers presented. But understanding it was a survey of multiple choice and identifiers, I understand now.
I am not placing mountain biking at the top of the food chain . I don't think we have to be a majority to not have a seat at the table, but I am suggesting the same thing I have suggested from the very beginning.
Where are we now, and how do we get to where we want to go, and what vehicle are we going to use to get there?
What organization has stood up and said they will represent. What cycling organization does this location fall into their jurisdiction? If they are not stepping up and asking for help from our almighty mother ship IMBA then they need to be replaced. Nobody has clearly defined who is representing this situation in OC Parks and I have heard nothing a far as results from the meetings that the local cycling organizations had conducted.
Is there a plan or is that covert?
littlewave
Well-Known Member
SHARE is the local IMBA affiliate.
What results? From the September SHARE board meeting? I don't speak for SHARE, but SHARE has been around since 1988 working on access for bikes in Orange County, so I guess they've been standing up and representing for 30 years. This isn't the first time access for bikes has been threatened or rumored to be threatened. There's no covert plan, but I got the feeling at the board meeting that although concerning, this didn't rise to the level of actionable.
I am not sure how much of a situation there is currently, I have not spoken with the rangers or heard about this threatened closure other than in this thread. And remember, according to @herzalot the closure is threatened IF the rangers can't keep bikes off closed trails. That does not mean we shouldn't be as involved as possible, to make sure we have a seat at the table and protect our access. I will check back in on the October 8th board meeting and see if SHARE thinks this warrants proactive outreach.
Anyone from SHARE, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong or characterizing incorrectly.
Dirtrider....
Well-Known Member
I stopped for a horseback rider in Oaks a few months ago... beautiful horse... chatted with her for a bit... or may i say she vented her 40 year historical frustration with me on how the mountain bikers were the cause of all the bad trail conditions in the park... how we prefer to ride in the ruts and tear up the terrain. I was shocked honestly. but i just listened for a bit and then said have a safe ride as she continued on. i just chocked it up to her being an old crusty person whos view will never change. you could tell she had been out there since the park was first opened probably. and you could also tell she thinks her viewpoint is the only correct viewpoint no matter what information you provide to the contrary. there is no constructive dialogue with people like that... lord knows i have too many of them in my own family.
tick
Well-Known Member
I think you really underestimate the brain power represented on this forum. Many folks who know how to work in, around, and through red tape in their own spheres of competence. And then there’s me .
But telling us “it’s complicated, go away,” isn’t gonna be all that effective. Nothing about this has to travel faster than the speed of light, so it’s all possible given a big enough lever.
tick
Well-Known Member
One bike doesn’t do 10% the damage a horse does, though I’ll grant that they’re outnumbered 30/1 these days.
mtnbikej
J-Zilla
tick
Well-Known Member
Reforming SHARE from within to be more welcoming and accessible to the riding community would go a long ways. I’ve done a couple trail work days, and never came away feeling welcome to stick around. It doesn’t feel like a venue to build a large advocacy group, it’s more about a small group of friends who like to work on trails. Which is great, so far as it goes. But i think it’s a fairly weak organization politically, and having them carry the IMBA banner for OC makes IMBA look pretty useless to the local bureaucrats.
The bike shops wield way more influence in the community. You are far more likely to hear a bike shop owner or employee pushing ebikes, bragging about poaching, or bagging on the trail builders, than you are to see them hosting SHARE meetings or sending their Sunday rides out to trail work days.
littlewave
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I am a new SHARE member, and have never participated in a SHARE trail work day, but I got a different feeling at the board meeting. What would make it more accessible and welcoming? I am happy to pass thoughts along at the next meeting (or, come join for the ride and meeting!).
blixet
iMTB Rockstah
I have a fair background in survey construction and interpretation as well as a knowledge of statistics. And I have some experience in dealing with bureaucracy and land use issues. A naked survey thrown out to support someone's argument is useless without the a complete accounting of the accompanying methodology under which it was taken. To my mind, surveys are marketing tools masquerading as facts. As far as bureaucracy and surveys go, I assume that they have already formulated a plan and sorted through dozens of surveys to publish the ones that supports their agenda.
If you have an opportunity to go to a public hearing with the purported reason of collecting public opinion, you can be sure that the bureaucracy is well along the established procedural path to enacting whatever they have already decided. This is one more box to check. At least that is how I have experienced it in L.A. Co. Maybe Orange Co is different. And I read a supervisor's name some upthread. Let me assure you there is a constituency of one. And unless you can further the political ambitions, you are going to be a demeaning joke at a private party later. Seriously.
If you have an opportunity to go to a public hearing with the purported reason of collecting public opinion, you can be sure that the bureaucracy is well along the established procedural path to enacting whatever they have already decided. This is one more box to check. At least that is how I have experienced it in L.A. Co. Maybe Orange Co is different. And I read a supervisor's name some upthread. Let me assure you there is a constituency of one. And unless you can further the political ambitions, you are going to be a demeaning joke at a private party later. Seriously.
tick
Well-Known Member
SHARE will matter when they are rowing in the same direction as the shop owners.
My only idea to make SHARE relevant is to have them publish a large map of ebike-legal routes in OC, and then organize a general boycott of any shop that doesn’t put one on the front door and one behind the cash register.
Obsidian
iMTB Rockstah
Where can I get those stickers? I will paste them everywhere.
Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
bvader
iMTB Rockstah
I only took a photograph...
What’s against your better judgement?
Just not following you...
Thought we were trying to be.... thoughtful...
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Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
Fair enough. With all the hub bub here, I thought we were trying to call in the Calvary.
Obsidian
iMTB Rockstah
So those are official pics the park placed? If so, awesome! Lynx is not what I would rate as "difficult" though ... despite me crashing on that trail three times. OK, it is deceptively difficult.
herzalot
iMTB Hooligan
Lynx is not difficult for an experienced rider. Barely intermediate by Canadian standards. But I too had the worst crash of my life on the first 100 yards of Lynx - at least I think I did. I don't remember it. @knucklebuster got his screen name from a rock on the first 50 feet of Lynx!
Obsidian
iMTB Rockstah
I have gone down three times at the rock garden section. For whatever reasons, I hesitated each time, and then took a different line than normal. It is a trail I have not ridden more than 20 times ever, but three crashes, so the ratio is not good, LOL.
Mikie
Admin/iMTB Hooligan
Obsidian
iMTB Rockstah
I said Peak User Time! Sheesh!
That is actually a great point ... all of the OC Parks trails are freaking awesome during the week. It is only the weekends when they suck. The only park I will ride on a weekend is Aliso (for the eye candy if I am honest), and Oaks.
Unfortunately, I have a job and can't get out and ride during the week ... and I am unwilling to battle traffic in the summer to hit them up after work.