Boutique vs Major brands... thoughts?

The trouble with the lower spec big box brand bikes is that the forks are always Sh!t under $4k. I wish they would not spec Sh!t forks and just put house everything else on to reach the same price point $2600-$3200

I rented a FS stumpy 29er last season from rock and rode and enjoyed it, Sans the Sh!t brakes and Sh!t Dropper post. It was MSRP $2800 and on year end for $2200. At the $2200 it's was a no brainer sweet bargain, but at $2800 you could get a giant or other with a better fork.
 
kazlx said:
My buddy just picked up a brand new aluminum YT Tues. He ended up buying a new shock and changing out the damper in the Boxxer to upgrade....so brand new DH bike for a little over $3k OTD. That's hard to beat.
Click to expand...

It all depends on the component set... whether it is a hard price to beat or not.

If you are describing the Tues AL... that bike comes with entry level GX components. So I think the price is very easy to beat. Get that frame for the same price with X01 DH components, and I'd say that was a good deal.
 
muni said:
For those with Specialized frames and wanting a non Specialized shock mount. Bikeyoke has replacement yokes for enduros, stumpjumpers, and cambers. I have one and just haven't decided which shock to use. Takes a standard 190x51 shock.
Click to expand...

What I cannot understand is why we have different ways of measuring: inches millimetres - kilos stones - litres pints - Fahrenheit Celsius etc. etc. etc..
If we could just have one standard how great it would be. No more calculating waste time.
 
BonsaiNut said:
That's because Windows IS a prison. By design. And it's only getting worse. Heck today I tried to do an Internet search using Bing and I was prompted to log into my (non-existing) Windows account to create a "unified experience and earn points for free Microsoft Products or free XBox Ones!" Heaven forbid!
Click to expand...

Want to be different? Linux.
 
john_hovard said:
What I cannot understand is why we have different ways of measuring: inches millimetres - kilos stones - litres pints - Fahrenheit Celsius etc. etc. etc..
If we could just have one standard how great it would be. No more calculating waste time.
Click to expand...

Because the US as a country wimped out in the 1970's. We were well on our way to going full metric... and then people backed off because it was too "hard". I remember the days when the speed limit signs were all in K/hr, with a small M/hr number underneath.

If you do a big export business, most of the time you have switched to metric. That's why alcohol bottles (for example) are 1 liter or 1.75 liter.
 
herzalot said:
I like bike brands with soul. I like brands that don't make anything but mt. bikes. I like a bike brand where I can e-mail or talk to the owner directly, and swap stories about riding. I have the cell phone numbers of a few bike brand's presidents, CEOs, CFOs or R and D guys. I flash them a text when their riders have a great day. They respond. They know my kid, I know theirs.

I hate proprietary, volume deal trickery like OEM forks and brakes or hubs that are substandard, as mentioned above.

I've never paid more than $3999 for a complete mt. bike from a "boutique" brand, nor more than $1400 for a frameset w/shock, (plus fr. derailleur, seat post and clamp).

Develop relationships and you can sidestep all the BS and get what you want for waaaaaaaay less than retail.

Best wishes, y'all!
Click to expand...


You got to know somebody to get such low prices. I do not.
 
I've run a couple of low end drive parts, SLX and GX, and I have to think that, like bikes, the low end stuff is pretty damn good these days. (Stay away from the scale, maybe.)

The option of a low end build appeals to me in that I can ride a new bike for the weeks required to really get to know it, then I can either plan an eventual exit strategy or figure out what I want to upgrade. I went all-in off the bat once, and took a good hit when I finally realized it was not as good as I'd hoped. Demo will tell a lot, but for me, it takes at least several rides to get my bike and me worked out. Directions and circumstances can change, too.

Every bike one buys is a risk, and ultimately teaches one about her own riding. Not to mention about bikes. I've never really regretted any bike-related purchase; they all helped me get to where I am now: Having the most fun and riding the best bikes for me that I ever have.

Sorry if that was tangent! Trying to suppress riding energy is a b!tch :coffee:
 
Runs with Scissors said:
Maybe I just don't know any better, but the four "big brand" bikes I've purchased new, and ridden the crap out of, have served me very well with the original parts.

2012 Cannondale Synapse 105 $1,200
2013 Trek Mamba $899
2015 Giant XTC Advanced 1 $2,400
2017 Giant Defy Advanced 2 $1,800

All of them work(ed) perfectly, and I've got 14,000 miles on them collectively. The only one I've done any major changes on is the XTC, and that was just turning it into a 1x vs 2x.

Well, I did drop $500 on the Cannondale to upgrade to Ultegra drivetrain, derailleurs and shifters, but that was so my wife would love it...:laugh:
Click to expand...


I had a Scott Strike G-zero Carbon Project (very long name for a bike I think) and it treated me nice until somebody took it from my garage when I was on vacation. Then I bought the Ibis Mojo 2009 which is a lot better, but I would have never known that if I did not have to get a new bike. The frame, crankset (new bearings), seatpost and headset are still the same but every other component has been changed when the oem parts were worn out or broken. I too dislike the proprietary idea so the only parts from Specialized I have is the carbon saddle S-works Toupe and S-works shoes. Still looking for more ventilated than these but such may not exist. Best pedals in the world since forever (just ask Mikie) Speedp,ay Frog. Most other components are from Shimano, sorry, but their stuff seems to be hard to beat.
 
in an attempt to stay on topic: modern composite frame mfg is inherently a big business. The salesman who slaps his sticker on Taiwan's Best may have cool tattoos or a big shuttle truck. but in the end he is just a salesman.

Choose a brand based on price, geometry/fit, and warranty policy. Anything else and we might as well be discussing designer purses.
 
tick said:
in an attempt to stay on topic: modern composite frame mfg is inherently a big business. The salesman who slaps his sticker on Taiwan's Best may have cool tattoos or a big shuttle truck. but in the end he is just a salesman.

Choose a brand based on price, geometry/fit, and warranty policy. Anything else and we might as well be discussing designer purses.
Click to expand...
I'd add suspension to that list.
 
tick said:
in an attempt to stay on topic: modern composite frame mfg is inherently a big business. The salesman who slaps his sticker on Taiwan's Best may have cool tattoos or a big shuttle truck. but in the end he is just a salesman.
Click to expand...

Nope... Design of the frame is still in the hands of the engineers and bike riders of the company with the sticker. Manufacturing tolerances and expectations are also driven by the company's philosophy. Decisions about the raw materials and layup too... The big Taiwanese or Chinese factories don't just pump out a frame and then Santa Cruz, Yeti, Intense or Ibis slap a sticker on it.

That said, the "boutique" bikes are not necessarily better than the Giants. Specializeds and Treks, it's just that their companies are far more focused on mt. bikes only and far more approachable. If you like dealing with Mega-Bike companies, you are not alone. If I can get the same or better prices from an approachable company that knows and loves mt. biking, that's where my dollar goes.
 
john_hovard said:
You got to know somebody to get such low prices. I do not.
Click to expand...
I didn't. But I do now. Even a few people on IMTB know some industry insiders that can help. And, you can always write an e-mail.

Like this:

Hey Transition Guys and Gals,

I am really intrigued by your bikes, and love the vibe of your company. Problem is, I can't find anywhere to demo a Transition, and there are too many great bikes out there to buy one blind. How can I get my hands on an XL Patrol to try out on my local trails to see if it's as awesome as I think it is?
 
herzalot said:
Nope... Design of the frame is still in the hands of the engineers and bike riders of the company with the sticker. Manufacturing tolerances and expectations are also driven by the company's philosophy. Decisions about the raw materials and layup too... The big Taiwanese or Chinese factories don't just pump out a frame and then Santa Cruz, Yeti, Intense or Ibis slap a sticker on it.
Click to expand...

I did say you should consider price, tolerances are directly correlated with cost, and you can get what you pay for. But far too often we're paying for entrance into a "community" or other such nonsense.

And you are correct that the contract manufacturers will only turn out consistent high quality if you micromanage them/live in the factory with them. So I'm not interested in a new boutique brand that has yet to learn that the hard way.
 
Last edited:
herzalot said:
I didn't. But I do now. Even a few people on IMTB know some industry insiders that can help. And, you can always write an e-mail.

Like this:

Hey Transition Guys and Gals,

I am really intrigued by your bikes, and love the vibe of your company. Problem is, I can't find anywhere to demo a Transition, and there are too many great bikes out there to buy one blind. How can I get my hands on an XL Patrol to try out on my local trails to see if it's as awesome as I think it is?
Click to expand...
You didn't address the issue. The issue was price not demo. If I approach a brand with "hi, I'm herzalot, #1 poster on socal's best bike forum," guess what? You are an insta-bro.

The brands will fall over themselves to influence the influencers. I was in a shop once, the manager was on the phone talking price with someone who knew how much a prominent forum poster had paid. The manager was quick to reply that that deal was special, because the individual was influential. That's just how it is.
 
tick said:
You didn't address the issue. The issue was price not demo. If I approach a brand with "hi, I'm herzalot, #1 poster on socal's best bike forum," guess what? You are an insta-bro.

The brands will fall over themselves to influence the influencers. I was in a shop once, the manager was on the phone talking price with someone who knew how much a prominent forum poster had paid. The manager was quick to reply that that deal was special, because the individual was influential. That's just how it is.
Click to expand...
Well, thanks for the strategy. I've developed very good relationships without mentioning forum posting or influence.

True, @john_hovard mentioned he doesn't know any insiders, thus can't get a good price, and I replied by talking about a demo. I guess that's where the direct relationship starts. As for good prices at a shop, I've never had a shop say "no" if I ask if they can do any better on price. I don't bring up that I can get it cheaper elsewhere - that's a pisser-offer. Do NOT expect a shop to meet an internet price. That's completely unfair.

BTW - does anyone think Larry has actually given away any mattresses? "We'll beat anyone's advertised price or your mattress is free!"
Can you picture this - "Hmmm, I didn't know that Mattress Emporium had that Serta for $999.99 Shoot. I certainly can't sell that for $989.99, so here, take it for free!"
 
Last edited:
tick said:
You didn't address the issue. The issue was price not demo. If I approach a brand with "hi, I'm herzalot, #1 poster on socal's best bike forum," guess what? You are an insta-bro.

The brands will fall over themselves to influence the influencers. I was in a shop once, the manager was on the phone talking price with someone who knew how much a prominent forum poster had paid. The manager was quick to reply that that deal was special, because the individual was influential. That's just how it is.
Click to expand...

This is an interesting back and forth. I'd say 25% of my job is "wheeling and dealing," and charming corporate and individual donors. When I'm not working I can probably go 48 hours without saying a word or smiling at another person and be completely happy.
So, what I'd like to do here for you guys is offer to reach-out to brands of your selection and see if I can get a $4000+ bike for $3200. I'd just need $1600 from each of you (refundable, should I fail-of course.) :D

I know, I know. That's "super cool," and "very selfless," of me. Just my nature.
tick said:
Agreed. Except there are a lot of potential riders out there shaking heads at our characterization of SLX as "low end." We are the yuppie scum...
Click to expand...
I've only experienced SLX on a demo bike and it was really nice. I actually liked the SLX brakes better than my XT brakes.
 
herzalot said:
Well, thanks for the strategy. I've developed very good relationships without mentioning forum posting or influence.

True, @john_hovard mentioned he doesn't know any insiders, thus can't get a good price, and I replied by talking about a demo. I guess that's where the direct relationship starts. As for good prices at a shop, I've never had a shop say no if I ask if they can do any better on price. I don't bring up that I can get it cheaper elsewhere - that's a pisser-offer. Do NOT expect a shop to meet an internet price. That's completely unfair.

BTW - does anyone think Larry has actually given away any mattresses? "We'll beat anyone's advertised price or your mattress is free!" Can you picture this - "Hmmm, I didn't know that Mattress Emporium had that Serta for $999.99 Shoot. I certainly can't sell that for $989.99, so here, take it for free!"
Click to expand...
My own experience just doesn't align with yours I guess. I can't argue with your experience, i'd just ask that you not deny that for many of us, this is what we encounter:

Most of us can reasonably expect to get a 5-10% move off MSRP if we're doing what you suggest. Not bad, and making friends is never a bad idea. But like I said, I get that from REI, and I don't even have to butter them up. But for the kind of price breaks that are worth talking about, my personal experience has been that you can not expect anything close to the "bro deal" unless you are considered highly influential by the seller. You truly have to be a bro. Whether that's forum posting, or the shop race team, or whatever.

What was frustrating to me was that the influential folks were always telling me how great their brand/shop experience is, and what great deals they get, while I got indifferent service and MSRP, no matter how hard I tried to play by the bro rules. Once I concluded that I was not going to be one of the cool kids, and made my peace with going around the LBS whenever practical, I felt better.
 
herzalot said:
Nope... Design of the frame is still in the hands of the engineers and bike riders of the company with the sticker. Manufacturing tolerances and expectations are also driven by the company's philosophy. Decisions about the raw materials and layup too... The big Taiwanese or Chinese factories don't just pump out a frame and then Santa Cruz, Yeti, Intense or Ibis slap a sticker on it.

That said, the "boutique" bikes are not necessarily better than the Giants. Specializeds and Treks, it's just that their companies are far more focused on mt. bikes only and far more approachable. If you like dealing with Mega-Bike companies, you are not alone. If I can get the same or better prices from an approachable company that knows and loves mt. biking, that's where my dollar goes.
Click to expand...

Hasn't Santa Cruz out-sourced all their frame production to Giant anyway?
 
BonsaiNut said:
Hasn't Santa Cruz out-sourced all their frame production to Giant anyway?
Click to expand...
Santa Cruz is 100% what I was wondering about. They're a boutique brand that was doing a pretty good job or transitioning to a major, and then was purchased by a faceless off-shore international conglomerate. Where do they stand? What is their future? I still think they're a great company, but at some point do they start being something else?

BTW, somewhat related: Five Ten is basically going out of business after being purchased by a faceless off-shore international conglomerate. They were purchased by Addidas a few years ago, and everything was cool, until it wasn't. Adidas just wanted the intellectual property of their rubber compound formulation. Got that, now the company is no more. So if you like your 5.10 shoes... better stock up!
 
tick said:
My own experience just doesn't align with yours I guess. I can't argue with your experience, i'd just ask that you not deny that for many of us, this is what we encounter:

Most of us can reasonably expect to get a 5-10% move off MSRP if we're doing what you suggest. Not bad, and making friends is never a bad idea. But like I said, I get that from REI, and I don't even have to butter them up. But for the kind of price breaks that are worth talking about, my personal experience has been that you can not expect anything close to the "bro deal" unless you are considered highly influential by the seller. You truly have to be a bro. Whether that's forum posting, or the shop race team, or whatever.

What was frustrating to me was that the influential folks were always telling me how great their brand/shop experience is, and what great deals they get, while I got indifferent service and MSRP, no matter how hard I tried to play by the bro rules. Once I concluded that I was not going to be one of the cool kids, and made my peace with going around the LBS whenever practical, I felt better.
Click to expand...
The last two bikes I purchased were 2013 models bought December of 2012. My guy Shannon @ Cyclery USA definitely gave me a deal. Unfortunately, the owner Craig could not sustain the profit margins, so Shannon had to go. That is a big reason I haven't purchased a bicycle since.

Having said that, if you are interested in shopping for a bike, I can introduce you to my new guy (Oscar) at the same shop (Cyclery USA) to see about a Bro-acquaintance deal. Cyclery USA sells Trek, Specialized, and Santa Cruz MTBs, and it is in Rancho Cucamonga; not close to Orange, but not far if you bring a bike and we ride nearby afterwards. Lemme know, and I'll go with you if you're interested.
 
BonsaiNut said:
Because the US as a country wimped out in the 1970's. We were well on our way to going full metric... and then people backed off because it was too "hard". I remember the days when the speed limit signs were all in K/hr, with a small M/hr number underneath.

If you do a big export business, most of the time you have switched to metric. That's why alcohol bottles (for example) are 1 liter or 1.75 liter.
Click to expand...

Metric is for the French and other pansies. It's also gibberish. Unless you grow up with it, it's meaningless...I happen to know that 1 km = .62 miles, but I still convert. The rest of the world needs to get with the program and use Standard. :cool: Meters are irrelevant.

And the speed of light is roughly 186,000 miles per second.
 
The industrial design of the frames from the big players...and even the smaller guys are mostly done domestically. They'll send the designs over to the manufacturer...and from there the manufacturer will work with the designer on the frame.

The guys that just slap their names on an open mold frame...well you can pretty much always tell right away.
 
Interesting comments about "shop bros" and bro deals. I see that a lot at The Path, and I've always been an outsider. I'm not interested in doing races and shop rides and wearing the Argyle. So I get my little 10% discounts on already-good prices. I'm pretty sure I could talk Tani down pretty deep if I were buying a new bike that they already have on the floor. I think BikeCo has a bunch of insider "Bros" too who do the gnarliest local rides and who sport customized BikeCo suspension. I can't hang with them either - I'm too old, too slow, and not bro-y enough (I don't do well in large groups).

So back to boutique vs. not. Sorry to hear about 5.10 and perhaps Santa Cruz. Seems like about 2/3rds of the shoes I see on DH and 1/3rd of Enduro racers are on 5.10. I hope the brand does not disappear, as forecast above.
 
Last edited:
10% is nothing in my book. Most shops will offer that just asking and would still be well above what you could find just looking around on the internet.

Not saying the YTs come with the best components, but a complete DH bike OTD for $2800 without even having to look around or haggle is pretty damn good. The GX stuff is nice imo, and I have the X01 DH stuff on my bike.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top